Subject: Re: The Collector of Hearts
 Date:  Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:12:51 EST
 From:  composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)

HI Mark--

The previous collections was titled, "Haunted: Tales of the Grotesque,"
if that is what you are referring to.  Unless you are talking about a
Haunted other than that by Joyce Carol Oates.  She is probably collecting
some of the darker stories she has published in literary reviews,
probably one or two from Ellery Queen, and elsewhere.  

Best,

David C.
Michigan



Subject:  Birthday
Date:  Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:33:12 -0800 (PST)
From:   joyce l merritt 


I've been arguing with myself about whether or not to bring this up;  
anyway, here goes:

It seems to be customary to celebrate the round-numbered birthdays of
famous people.  JCO will be having one of these birthdays in a few months. 
I don't know whether or not she wants to be reminded of her birthday, nor
how she feels about "fuss", but it has occurred to me to wonder whether or
not it would be a good idea for Tone Clusters as a group somehow to
acknowledge JCO's birthday, aside from continuing to read, think about and
discuss her work.  If so, how would we do it (I can't quite see passing a
card from Korea to Mexico to the U.S. to Canada to Britain--have I left
any countries out?)?  It would be horrifying to do anything that JCO would
perceive as a nuisance or that would be embarassing to her.  What does the
Group think?  Would it be possible to use any existing channels to find
out whether or not JCO would object to some sort of birthday
ackowledgement? 

Steve



Subject: Re: Birthday
Date:  Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:24:15 EST
From:   Cyranomish 

Hi, Steve.  I recall an interview Oates had several years ago -- "My Father,
My Fiction" -- about her childhood, specifically in relation to her dad.  She
noted that she resembles him in not wanting a fuss about her own birthday (or
Xmas).  This card issue always reminds me of that old Frank Sinatra movie:
"The Manchurian Candidate:" Laurence Harvey and Frank Sinatra are getting
drunk at xmas time and Harvey's trying to decide whether to send a xmas card
to his Buddhist butler and decides that if does, the butler will feel obliged
to send him a card on Buddha's birthday: "and then it will all just wind up a
great big megillah."  I like to avoid megillahs whenever possible, but there's
no reason you as an individual couldn't send a card.  Cyrano



Subject:  Re: Birthday
Date:  Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:46:23 EST
From:  Ehaggar 


Steve et al

It seems like a lovely idea to me---the Tone Clusters is a kind of a family
group, isn't it?  Greg, of course, knows her personally and perhaps would be
the one to give us the real advice on this---but I think it would be very
nice.  What does everyone else think?

Ellen Haggar



Subject:  Re: Birthday
Date:  Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:50:46 EST
From:   Ehaggar 

Cyrano----

I almost always bow to your knowledge on these things, but I can't believe
there isn't something tasteful we as a group could do re JCO's birthday---it
isn't like we want to take her out to a steakhouse and and have the staff wing
Happy Birthday to her...

Also, I too have a father who talks about how awful birthdays are, that he
wants no fuss made over him, etc etc----the one year we actually DIDN'T have a
celebration he was very upset.....

GREG?????    ARE YOU IN HERE GREG????   ARE YOU OUT THERE GREG???

and if it turns out, as I have sometimes suspected, that you (Cyranomish) are
in fact JCO, I will be acutely embarrassed about this 

Ellen Haggar



Subject:  JCO & GOD
Date:  Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:11:26 EST
 From:   Pacopaco22 

I have finished the fourth JCO book: Bellefleur, Mulvaneys, Them, Because it
is Bitter.  IN all of those books, JCO makes reference to her character's lack
of belief in God or a particular religion.  Can someone please shed some light
on the reference Oates constantly makes about theism v. atheism.  

Jorge



Subject:  Re: Birthday
Date:   Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:20:01 -0800 (PST)
From:  joyce l merritt 


Ellen and Everyone:

I fall a little between you and Cyrano;  a card is certainly NOT what I
had in mind.  I'm not sure what is;  I'm a little less optimistic than
you, Ellen, that there definitely is something both tasteful and
appropriate that we could do, but I hope that there is and would like to
explore the idea (I loved your image of the worst choice).  To "tasteful" 
and "appropriate", I think I'd like to add "creative".  It would be nice
if, assuming we did something, we had an idea that made sense as coming
from Tone Clusters, but would be less likely for anyone else to think of
or do.  However, even thinking about something makes sense only if we have
a consensus to try.  If anyone is really against it, I think we should
drop the notion, given that Tone Clusters is all of us and not just some. 

Incidentally, I feel very comfortable that Cyrano is not JCO.  If they are
one and the same, then either JCO has interviewed herself at least a
couple of times, or Cyrano is less than reliable.  I find it more
convincing to believe that Cyrano is himself (you do come across as a man,
Cyrano, at least to me, though I wouldn't rule out that "Cyrano" is a nom
de net), an extremely knowledgible and insightful person, but someone
whose style (as far as we can judge it from E-mails) is different from
JCO's. 

Steve



Subject:  Re: Birthday
Date:  Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:52:38 EST
From:  Ehaggar 


Steve and everyone:

Kisses to Steve, who is such a sweetheart, and so sensible---he is right, if
anyone of us thinks that a birthday indication would not be a good idea, than
we shouldn't do it.....and I was mostly kidding about Cyrano as JCO
.......By the way, JCO is reading at Spoleto, a mostly over-rated
festival of the arts held in Charleston, SC every year---but sometimes they
have good folks---it will be in May----I live in Charleston and any Tone
Cluster who wants to crash with me is welcome....I have a large house with
several bedrooms....I do have to get the exact date, since "sometime in May"
is probably a little vague...

Ellen H.



Subject:  Re: The Collector of Hearts
 Date:   Mon, 02 Mar 98 07:54:12 EST
From:   Mark Sutton 


David,

I did mean _Haunted:  Tales of the Grotesque_.  I just got in a hurry typing.

Thanks for the lead;  I'll start hunting back issues of those magazines.

Mark



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
 Date:  Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:57:36 EST
  From:   composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)

Dear Group (& Steve,  Ellen),

Must disagree with Cyrano on this one.  I have met Joyce on several
occasions and have worked with her professionally twice, and am in no
doubt that she would enjoy a birthday card from a legion of loyal fans. 
She is always gracious to her fans, and even more, is curious about them.
 A birthday card from Tone Clusters would not only be fitting, it would
be just the type of quirky act that JCO loves.  With the support of Greg
(whom I assumes knows her best), I am sure it would be a fun thing to do.

David C.
Michigan



Subject:   Re: Birthday Card
Date:  Mon, 02 Mar 98 08:15:24 EST
From:   Mark Sutton 

I think it would be nice to do something for her birthday, though I agree with
the logistics problem.  Maybe we could just send her one signed from the group.

To follow up on Ellen's comment about Oates at the Spoleto festival:  Oates will
be there May 29 at 3:30.  The number for tickets is (803) 723-0402.  Tickets are
$10.00

Mark Sutton



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
Date:  Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:57:34 -0500 (EST)
From:  Karen Gaffney 


hi. i think acknowledging jco's birthday is a great idea. since it would 
be impossible for each of us to sign a regular birthday card, maybe we 
could create a birthday web site for her that would be up for the month 
of her birthday? i don't mean to overburden randy with work, but if we 
each email randy a short message, then he could post our individual 
birthday wishes to jco on 1 single web page saying happy birthday. or a 
collective message could be written on the page and we could all get our 
names on it. i dont know if jco is the type to surf the web on a daily 
basis, or if this mode of expression would be an inconvenience to her. i 
do know she's seen the web site and loves it (she mentioned it at a reading).
so it's just a thought. a regular card could be sent through regular mail 
providing the address of the birthday web site.

-karen



Subject:  Re: Birthday
 Date:  Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:01:02 -0500
From:  cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)


        CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHEN THE BIRTHDAY OF OUR AUTHOR IS?
ALSO, WHEN IS GREG'S LIFE GOING TO BE RELEASED?  THANKS AND BEST REGARDS,



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:28:41 -0500 (CDT)
From:  weathermon@tarleton.edu


Hello fellow Oates fans!  I've been on the list for a few weeks and have
enjoyed reading everyone else's comments and thoughts.  I haven't
contributed to the discussion due to my busy schedule--I'm consumed with
my master's thesis on Oates--and I generally am able to read my email
mostly at work.  Therefore, I tend to lurk and absorb rather than respond
and contribute.  But anyway, on to my point!  

I think it's a wonderful idea to somehow acknowledge as a group JCO's
birthday, and I definitely want to be included.  I agree that she's
curious about her fans and would appreciate a tasteful and fitting
birthday wish.  

Thanks, 

Kalene Weathermon



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
Date:   Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:13:18 -0800 (PST)
From:  "Anthony H. Risser Ph.D." 


Group,

   I'll add my opinion in favor of a birthday card sent by the group
in the group's name.

   Just thinking out loud: If there were a desire to individualize it,
however, wouldn't it be easier and more simple to do that
electronically? We could post a one or two sentence greeting over our
posting name and have someone (?) cut-and-paste onto a one or two page
document that could be enclosed in the card. Not very charming, I
agree, but it might get the task done.

   Thank you to the originator of the idea.

Anthony H. Risser
ahris@yahoo.com



Subject:   Birthday & A Question
 Date:  Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:25:15 +0000
 From:   "F. Schwartz" 

I've been reading and occasionally posting in this forum for more than a
year - and I think a group-signed greeting/tribute to jco for her
birthday (electronic being the most practical means of delivery) is a
fine idea.

But I seem to have missed something - is the group calling itself Tone
Clusters? Has there been a consensus on this? Sorry if I somehow ignored
the obvious, but I'm feeling rather like an outsider when I read the
posts about this.

Regards to all...

Francie



Subject: Re: Birthday & A Question
Date:   Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:15:02 -0500
 From:   "Thomas A. Hulslander" 

I'm in the same boat as Francie...I've been reading the postings (or I
thought I was!!) but I have not posted much recently myself...busy with
too many other things!  I was confused by the Tone Clusters name also.
But, for the record, I agree a tasteful rememberance would be nice for
JCO's birthday.
Krista



Subject:  Re: Birthday & A Question
Date:   Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:31:50 -0500 (EST)
From:   Jennifer Nash 

Hey guys...
I have been very out of the discussion lately...
I agree. A recognition of jco's birthday would be really wonderful.
I hope everyone is doing well.
- jen

"...and if i seem strange to you at times, it is only because i'm
switching off the power, trying to help us both, trying to see you and
me as the people we really are."

-- douglas coupland (eagerly awaiting)



Subject:   Tone Clusters
Date:  Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:47:31 -0800
From:  composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)


For everyone's info, Randy posted an official notice that this group
would be called Tone Clusters, after JCO's play, some time ago (I think
on the one-year anniversary is when he posted it).  

Yes, Francie, we've missed you!

David C.
Michigan



Subject:  Re: Tone Clusters
Date:   Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:45:14 EST
 From:   Ehaggar 

Hi--

Backing up David here----Randy did put forth the Tone Clusters idea some time
ago....


Ellen H.



Subject:   Re: Birthday
Date:   Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:02:56 -0800 (PST)
From:   joyce l merritt 

Catherine:

If Britannica Online is correct, JCO's 60th birthday will be June 16, 1998.

Steve



Subject:   Re: JCO & GOD
Date:  Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:43:02 -0800 (PST)
From:  joyce l merritt 

Jorge:

You might want to look over an interesting discussion that the group had
on this subject in late January of this year;  it's posted on the web
site.  I just looked it up, but my short-term memory has gotten so feeble
that the only thing I remember for sure is that it started with a message
of January 29, I think from Anthony and I think with a subject referring
to Dostoyevsky (probably not spelled that way).  There are a variety of
informative messages sprinkled over the next few days. 

Incidentally, for anyone who missed Randy's announcement of the Group's
new name of Tone Clusters, I happened to see it again when I was looking
for the discussion of JCO and religion:  it's the last message posted in
the period February 1 through February 7, 1998. 

Steve



Subject:   Re: bibliography
   Date:   Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:54:25 -0800
From:   Randy Souther 


Has anybody else had difficulties using the searchable
 bibliography? This originally went online at the
beginning of December. Since then, I have managed to
 figure the program out a bit and got rid of the Java
(which slowed things down quite a bit), and customized
 the generic interface. This second, customized version
went online a few weeks ago. I'm not sure which version
 you are having problems with, Frank. I would have
expected the original Java version to cause some people
 problems, but not the current version. I have tested
it on Macs, Win95 and Win3.1 PCs with no problems. As 
of today, only the second version is accessible. Click on
the "bibliography" link on the table of contents of the web site.

The original original bibliography--the one that was a 
series of printed lists--was actually much more work to
maintain. And certainly much less versatile.

Randy



Subject:   Re: Birthday
 Date:   Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:10:21 EST
 From:   RJohn713 


I am behind on my e-mail.  JCO would appreciate the thought, I'm sure, but
doesn't like attention drawn to her personal life.  She is visiting Atlanta in
late May and the hosts had the idea of having a birthday cake on hand; she was
not at all happy with this idea.  I think she would prefer that attention
remain on her work, rather than on her.

Greg J.



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
 Date:  Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:12:54 EST
From:   RJohn713 

Yes, I'm sure she WOULD appreciate a birthday card.  I had assumed you were
planning something more elaborate, which she probably wouldn't like.  I'm
uncomfortable in being the "last word" on these matters, however, and feel
that people should do what they want to do, when so clearly well-intentioned.

Greg J.



Subject:  Re: Birthday
Date:  Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:13:54 EST
From:   RJohn713 
 

June 16 on the birthday; early April on the bio.

Greg



Subject:  Re: Tone Clusters
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:25:25 -0500
 From:   "Thomas A. Hulslander" 

David-thanks for clearing the Tone Clusters mystery up for me...I need
to pay more attention, obviously!
Krista



Subject:    Invisible Writer
Date:   Mon, 02 Mar 1998 22:33:26 -0800
From:   Randy Souther 


"With Oates's cooperation and that of her family, friends, and
acquaintances, Johnson (English, Kennesaw State Coll.) provides a
comprehensive close-up and personal view of the prolific, controversial
20th-century writer. From Oates's birth in Lockport, New York, to her
present life in Princeton, New Jersey, Johnson skillfully interweaves
the background, personality, character, lifestyle, and writings of the
author. Through this fascinating and well-written biography, readers
will feel that they know Oates almost as well as anyone can and may find
themselves vacillating between great admiration and empathy for the life
of this writer possessed by an insatiable desire for writing, but also
possessing an unstoppable, inventive imagination and the incredible
energy necessary to feed the desire. Whether or not a fan of Oates's
writings, anyone interested in literary biography should read this
intriguing account of the extraordinary life of a writer. Highly
recommended."

Library Journal, Feb 15, 1998 p142-143



Subject:   Re: Invisible Writer
Date:  Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:52:22 +0900
From:   "Sunhyung Kim" 


Wow, the long-awaited book of Greg's is finally out. Sounds great.
I should check the on-line bookstores immediately.
Congrats on this great review, Greg.
I'm sure your hard work will bear delicious fruits.

Kim



From: "Sunhyung Kim" 
Subject: Re: Birthday
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:11:16 +0900


I missed a beat on this topic again. When all things well said, I just want
to say that I'll be very happy to do a part in celebrating our heroine's
birthday. In any form decided on.  I will happily send an e-mail message. I,
however, wouldn't object to sending a real paper card if you would agree on
the method.  I think we have plenty of time.

Kim



From: "Sunhyung Kim" 
Subject: need your help
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:14:34 +0900


Dear Group -

These days I'm talking with some publishers about the possibility of 
translating JCO's works(Because It Is Bitter and Foxfire). However, it 
is not very easy 'cause the first and only book of hers introduced here, 
which is Zombie, turned out a horrible market failure last year. It may 
be bad marketing, bad translation, or the book just didn't fit the 
Korean readers, I don't know. Anyway, it seems obvious that another 
novel of hers is simply not a tempting idea to most of Korean 
publishers. At least for the present. The economic crisis we are facing 
now is another hard nut to crack. Nobody wants to take risks. (See my 
disappointed look here? -_-)

Still I have this strong hunch that if properly translated and 
introduced in the right way, JCO has the potential to make a league of 
loyal fans in Korea as anywhere else. If she'd be translated into Korean 
at all, God I wish I could be the lucky one to do that. Her writing just 
mesmerizes me.

Well, so I decided not to give up. I'm gonna slightly change the angle 
of approach and try short story collections. Just thought It might be a 
better way to launch her, cause writers like Raymond Carver were quite 
successfully introduced.

Now I'd like to ask you a favor. Would you please recommend your 
favorite collection of short stories? It would be really helpful. (For 
me, the only practical way to read JCO's books is to order them on-line. 
Then she's too prolific a writer as you know and the cost is too high 
for a student like me to buy all her works.)

Please take it into consideration that it's for translation. Universally 
appealing quality is most required here. Any comment is very welcome.

Kim



Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Karen Gaffney 
Subject: Re: Invisible Writer


there's also another great review of this book by booklist. it's posted 
on the amazon site. you can put your order for the book in now with them, 
but it won't be sent til april 1.

congrats greg! i'm really looking forward to reading it.

-karen



From: JonWendell@webtv.net (John Eggers)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:31:59 -0600
Subject: Re: need your help


Kim, I would reccomend  " Heat and Other Stories."   My favorite
collection so far



Subject:  Re: Invisible Writer
Date:   Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:58:07 EST
From:   Ehaggar 

Hey Greg---

Just read a copy of the review from LIBRARY that Randy sent around---you go,
boyfriend!!

Warmly
Ellen H



Subject:   Re: need your help
Date:   Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:05:34 EST
From:    Ehaggar 


Dear Kim,

I know that two of my favorite JCO short story collections are HAUNTED: TALES
OF THE GROTESQUE (1994) and an older collection entitled NIGHT-SIDE (1977).  I
realize there is a gap of about 20 years here, but they strike me as
wonderfully translatable!

Do not worry about the lack of success of ZOMBIE in Korea; it had many poor
reviews here, and many of JCO's most ardent admirers (like me) found it poorly
written, derivative to the point of being plaigarized in some spots, and
simply not worthy of her talent.

Best wishes

Ellen Haggar



From: Ehaggar 
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:10:03 EST
Subject: Re: Birthday


Dear Greg,

I love you like a brother, but as I pointed out in a yes to the birthday idea,
I don't believe any one of us had plans to take her to a steak house and have
the staff sing Happy Birthday to her   Or arrive on her doorstep of palm
branches, or dress up like our favorite JCO characters and drop in on her at
Princeton .  It does seem to me that some kind of card we could
all sign by hand would be nice.........For one thing, I don't know how in
everyone else is with Ms Oates, but I am one of the humble mob----the only
address I have for her is the English Dept at Princeton...

and congratulations on the online review at the amazon site!

Best
Ellen Haggar



Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:07:32 -0800
Subject: Miscellaneous
From: composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)


Dear Ellen oh Ellen--

So sorry to disagree with you about ZOMBIE.  I found it irresistible, and
one of the most frightening things I've read.  Quentin P was terrifying! 
Now, MAN CRAZY I thought was a little too trite.  Didn't much care for
it.  

I agree-- Nightside and Haunted are two of the best collections (I have
them both), but my favourite has to be WILL YOU ALWAYS LOVE ME?  Great
stuff in that one.

Best to all,

David C.
Michigan

p.s.-- Anyone going to the Virginia Festival of the Book in a few weeks? 
JCO's Princeton cohort Russell Banks, my new favorite author, will be
speaking there among many other great writers.  

p.p.s. -- Read Rita Mae Brown's memoir, RITA WILL.  In it, there is a
brief, easy-to-miss line about JCO's current agent, Elly Sidel.  Sidel,
"curly-haired and wildly funny" as Brown writes, was the first one to
sell Brown's cult classic, RUBYFRUIT JUNGLE to Bantam, who is still Rita
Mae's publisher.  



Subject:   Re: Miscellaneous
Date:  Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:00:06 EST
 From:    Ehaggar 


Dear David,

I know, I know---the JCO world seems to be divided between those who feel as I
do about ZOMBIE and those who feel as you do.  I'll give you the short story
collection WILL YOU ALWAYS LOVE ME, though---the title story in that
collection is absolutely remarkable.

What's this about the Virginia Festival of the Book?  and Russell Banks???  I
took a writing seminar under his direction at Sewanee a couple of years ago
and he is one of my favorite authors---CONTINENTAL DIVIDE was the book that
sort of got him on the literary map, but what is the name of that marvelous
novel, THE SWEET HEREAFTER, or something like that---about the bus full of
children that, through the poor judgment of the driver goes into a pond--some
are left alive, including the driver?  Anyway, everyone read that book
whatever it is (help me out, David, please).  Anyway Banks gives a most
impressive talk and he and JCO have been dedicating things to each other for
years......please, more details about the Virginia thing!

Best
Elllen H.

PS--Jen, where are you?  Haven't heard from you in a while, and miss your
comments!



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
 Date:  Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:54:40 -0600
From:   David Kodeski 


I'm sure to get in trouble for this... but here goes.

Wouldn't a person in the public eye (as the brilliant JCO is) who often
stated "pay attention to my work and not my private life" actually
create and audience for just the opposite?

Sort of a play on "I think the lady doth protest too much?"


Just a thought as I read these birthday cake posts.
-- 



Subject:   Re: Miscellaneous
Date:  Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:50:29 -0500 (EST)
From:    Jennifer Nash 


Ellen,

I am here :) I've been a little busy w/ school and everything but I'm
still here. Thanks for asking.

- jen

"...and if i seem strange to you at times, it is only because i'm
switching off the power, trying to help us both, trying to see you and
me as the people we really are."

-- douglas coupland 



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
Date:  Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:37:00 -0800 (PST)
From:  joyce l merritt 


Everyone:

I'm going to take the liberty of summarizing the birthday situation as I
understand it currently: 

1) Greg thinks that JCO would not want us to do anything elaborate, but
that she would find a card acceptable.  He does not claim to speak for JCO
herself. 

2) Most people who have responded to the idea have wanted to do something
for JCO's birthday;  there doesn't yet seem to be a consensus as to what. 
Cyrano expressed the feeling that JCO probably wouldn't want us to do
anything. 

3) Birthday ideas that seem to recur include a regular, physical birthday
card, and and some sort of electronic card. 

The decision to do something for JCO isn't currently unanimous.  It seems
to me that we need a unanimous decision in order to take action in the
name of Tone Clusters, as the group is all of us and not some, not even a
majority.  Perhaps Cyrano would like to clarify whether or not he
continues to prefer that we not do anything (his message was sent before
most people had responded, and before Greg had given his opinion).  If
Cyrano or anyone else dislikes the idea, I strongly suggest that we drop
it (I wouldn't feel right taking part against anyone's wishes, for
whatever that's worth).  As Cyrano pointed out in his message, any of us 
could act as individuals even if we didn't act as Tone Clusters. 

If we do turn out to be unanimous in favor of doing something, then 
perhaps it's important to decide now more specifically what, so that 
we'll have plenty of time to do whatever we might do.  To begin with, 
does coming up with something electronic automatically count as 
"elaborate"?  I don't know how much work it is to create and post or send 
anything more complicated than an E-mail.  If we did something posted on 
the Web, even if it were easy to do, might that not still count as 
"elaborate" because it would be public (sort of like buying a billboard 
outside Princeton and putting up the message "Happy Birthday JCO")?

If we were to fall back on a good old fashioned paper card, we would need
to arrange to send the card around, and would have to start soon, given
how spread out we are geographically (and are there any members of the
Group who, for any reason, would feel uncomfortable providing a physical
address for a card to go to?).  But another question about a card is:  who
would choose it?  Are there any cards out there that we could present to
JCO without, in a sense, violating the spirit of her work?  After all, if
we celebrate her, it will be not as a personal friend, but because of the
very special qualities of her writing. 

Is there anything not electronic and not a card that still qualifies as 
not elaborate, and that might be more interesting than a card?

Steve



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
Date:   Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:40:44 EST
From:  Ehaggar 


Everyone---

I suppose a male strip-o-gram is totally out of the question.....?


Ellen H



Subject:   The Birthday
 Date:   Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:52:22 +0000
From:  "F. Schwartz" 


I liked the summary. This is beginning to sound like a short story. Much
too much thinking and effort. I mean, for God's sake! Randy could convey
the good wishes of the Tone Clusters, in a manner subtle and gracious
enough to please jco, AND individuals could certainly send her paper
cards c/o Princeton. I find the idea of putting something up on the Net
a little on the fanatic side. 

Someone should probably write a story about an Email discussion group
who is so involved with the subject of the author that they begin to
argue about how "she" feels, and it escalates...

Ellen, thanks for maintaining a bit of perspective. Male strip o gram,
indeed!

Let's not get crazy, friends.

Francie



Subject:  Re: need your help
Date:  Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:41:45 -0500 (EST)
From:   Matthew A Cheney 


I'd second the "Heat" recommendation, though I'm also partial to "Will You
Always Love Me".  On the other hand, a good possibility for convincing
publishers that she's worth doing might be "Where are You Going, Where
Have You Been: Selected Early Stories" (that title looks wrong, but I
think I've got it right) -- it's a great collection of a lot of the works
that first made Oates famous.

Matt Cheney



Subject:  Re: need your help
Date:  Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:09:36 -0000
From:  "Gary Couzens" 

I'd second Matt Cheney's suggestion of "Where Are You Going, Where Have You
Been: Selected Early Stories" on the grounds that it's a self-selected
showcase.  It contains one story that had a huge impact on me when I first
read it, "In the Warehouse" (originally from The Goddess and Other Women).

Regarding the birthday card suggestion, I'd be happy to sign one. Someone
could airmail it to me and I'd airmail it on, either back to the USA or on
to somewhere else.  (If anyone in this group collects British stamps,
perhaps I could send it on to him/her... :-)) I don't have a problem giving
out my home address as it's in the public domain through various outlets
anyway.  Probably the best way to do this is for someone to collect the
addresses and put together a circulation list.

Gary Couzens



Subject:  Re: need your help
Date:  Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:45:15 +0900
From:   "Sunhyung Kim" 


I think Gary's idea is wonderful.  What do you think, guys?
Then maybe we'd better pass two or three cards at the same time...
'cause it will take time!

Kim



Subject:  R. Banks
 Date:  Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:54:50 EST
From:  Cyranomish 


Hi, Ellen.  I just covered Russell Bank's new novel CLOUDSPLITTER for a local
newspaper.  I was pleased to learn on the book jacket that AFFLICTION is a
film now starring Nick Nolte & Wm. Dafoe (I don't know which one's playing
Wade Whitehouse.) Cyrano



Subject: birthday
Date:   Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:40:49 EST
From:   Cyranomish 

Hi, Steve.  I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect unanimity in a group
this large & varied.
     Belated thanks to the poster who cited Wm. Gas's book FINDING A FORM.
His article on the Pulitzer Prize was very interesting.  Cyrano



Subject: Invisible Writer -Reply
Date:  Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:22:40 -0500
From:  Rosemary Ahern 


Congratulations, Greg!  I'm hunting up that Booklist for you...will fax when
I track it down.  All best, R.



Subject:  Re: Smerdyakov
Date:  Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:43:08 EST
From:  cambre@juno.com (john cambre)


On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:08:22 EST Cyranomish@aol.com writes:
>Hi, John.  I've read some FD biographies, but I never saw that he was a
>philologist (he trained to be an engineer in the military before he was
>sentenced to 8 years in Siberia).

Cyrano:

Obviously, I must have been mistaken about that; I think I must have
confused FD with Nietzsche, with whom FD is often identified as a
philosophical contemporary. As far as the name Miusov is concerned, I'm
not certain of the root but I'll keep my eyes open. (One of the difficult
things about Russian is that it's highly colloquial, which isn't
surprising given the geographical breadth of the country and the
migration of the language from church slavonic, originating in the
Ukraine, the Balkans, and even Macedonia, to what we know of as
contemporary, literary Russian. )

On another topic, I finished "Underworld" by DeLillo some months ago, at
long last. Like you, I was ultimately "underwhelmed". (couldn't resist
that, sorry.) Such a profusion of words for so little effect. Other than
the (admittedly dazzling) overture which begins the book, there's not
much to recommend it, in my view. There were some well-done vignettes,
but the characters remained ciphers all the way to the end. I didn't care
enough about any of them even to the point of disliking them. And none of
the episodes in their lives seemed truly novelistic. This was one of
those books that I tried hard to like, tried hard to find things to like
about it, but of which I was only intermittently successful. 

Since then I picked up "Independent People" by the Icelandic writer
Halldor Laxness, which I finished just last night. This truly was an
epic, a saga in the best Icelandic storytelling tradition; Laxness draws
you into a fully-realized world, which is so alien from anything we've
experienced in the modern West, but was thoroughly captivating
nonetheless. This is one of those books I know I'll read again.

Now starting: "The Information"/Martin Amis.



Subject:  Re: Birthday Card
Date:  Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:56:47 -0500 (EST)
From:  diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)


Guys,
        This birthday stuff is great! Whenever I think about writing to
JCO, pretty soon I realize to my horror that I'm starting to sound like a
JCO character even as I protest that I do not want to sound like one
of her characters; and I fear going under the famous analytic JCO gaze that 

misses nothing. (and yes, it's already started!).

        In any case the birthday discussion would be a great source for a JCO 
story - not that anybody hasn't been perfectly serious, reasonable, sincere 
and in good taste. And not that I wouldn't be perfectly happy to go along 
with whatever the group wanted re birthday wishes. Personally, I like
the billboard idea Steve - after all, JCO has a sense of humor and there's
probably enough of us to chip in toward the cost. How about an announcement
in the local Princeton paper (or school paper)? How about everyone write
a short essay on what JCO's writing has meant to them and we put them 
together electronically, someone prints them out and sends it on to her?

        If anyone has read this far, let me ask a question. A couple of 
people have mentioned Will You Always Love Me, the title story of the
collection of the same name. Can anyone explain what it means at the
end when the woman asks "Will you always love me?" in some kind of
special voice (a little girl's voice was it?). It's obviously the key
moment in the story; while it's frustrating to miss something important
like this, it happens all the time with JCO stories. But the rest of the
story (and stories) is (are) so good one doesn't mind too much. 

        Good luck with the birthday plans everyone!

Harvey Diamond



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Wed, 04 Mar 98 11:56:47 EST
    From: 
          Mark Sutton 

Kim,

I agree with the other comments about some of Oates's earlier stories.
_Where are you Going, Where Have You Been:  Stories of Young America_
might make a good choice.  I'm not sure how it overlaps with the other
collection with similar title (haven't read it)

I also second (third, whatever number we're on :) ) the nomination for
_Haunted:  Tales of the Grotesque_ and _Heat and Other Stories_.  These
both introduced me to Oates.  The second may work better, as some of the
stories in _Haunted_ remind me of _Zombie_.

Good luck,
Mark Sutton



Subject: 
          the public eye
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:15:58 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)

Actually, I don't find JCO much in the public eye as a person, given all
the writing she does. I know little of her private life beyond the book
jackets, the scant information in critical studies of her work, and the 
little tidbits from the web page and this discussion group. I think I've
seen only one profile on her in 20 years - one that the times magazine had
maybe 15 years ago. She usually tries to be very ordinary(?) in interviews and
seems to guard her inner persona with care. So I believe
she is sincere about not wanting celebrity status and not wanting to
create interest in her private life. Given her standing as a writer, obviously
some people will be curious and pick up her books to see what her writing
is like. But one can hardly believe she is actually trying to stir up
interest by being ostentatiously mysterious and shunning publicity in a
calculated way. 

Reminds me of something I once read about Cormac McCarthy, calling him the
only author who seemed to seriously not want publicity, who was successful
in not getting it, and whose sales were actually hurt because of it.
(Of course that all may have changed after the Border Trilogy books - even
he became a celebrity after that.) In my opinon "Suttree" is his masterpiece
(if anyone else has read his stuff).

Harvey Diamond



Subject: 
          Re: Delillo & Dost.
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:09:08 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 

Hi, John.  Yes, that was also my take on UNDERWORLD.  There was lots of hoopla
in literary publications the month it debuted, but that's pretty much settled.
I liked the opening chapter a lot and was perhaps unfairly expecting a BILLY
BATHGATE level of fiction/historical fact writing. Wasn't it odd how the
chapters about the black teenager and his treacherous father were set out in
special episodes in the novel but their story really came to nothing?   I
thought it was really sloppy the way DeLillo squandered a lot of good stories;
it's almost funny how so many people raved about the novel.  I guess it was
wishful thinking on his fans' part.  Did I mention here that I thought JCO
made a cameo appearance in DeLillo's far better short novel WHITE NOISE?
Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:16:55 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, Harvey.  So far, my favorite birthday celebration suggestion has been our
all dressing up like characters from JCO's fiction.  We could charter a bus to
Princeton and do a conga line around the campus in costume (some week when the
author's out of town, of course).  I would like to dress up like John Brown
the radical abolitionist -- since I just finished Russell Bank's CLOUDSPLITTER
-- John Brown is mentioned in ANGEL OF LIGHT, though he's not really a
character in that novel.  For my second costume choice -- I'm getting too old
to be Jules, dammit -- I'll be the old fellow who thinks Legs is rough trade
in FOXFIRE -- and gets robbed by her.  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Invisible Writer -Reply
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:30:50 EST
    From: 
          Pacopaco22 


I have already placed an order for this book.  heard there are 3 more people
doing the same thing in my area.  



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:36:56 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 

Cyrano et al,

Thanks, Cyrano, for appreciating my suggestion that all dress up as JCO
characters---I myself was going to try to be Legs Sandovsky......


Ellen H



Subject: 
            Re: Birthday Card
      Date: 
            Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:44:02 EST
      From: 
            cambre@juno.com (JOHN CAMBRE)

If you see anyone dressing as Thalia ("What I Lived For"), you'd better
duck.



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:36:55 EST
    From: 
          Pacopaco22 


I suggest that we send jco an electronic birthday card with all our names on
it.  should jco care to respond, i'm sure she can send us a thank you note.
this will be a simple and heartfelt note.  of course, we can all camp outside
her princeton office and read her poems at the strike of midnight.
jorge 



Subject: 
          Trip to Princeton?
     Date: 
          Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:58:47 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          MMILLER@desire.wright.edu

Cyrano, so long as you're the old guy intimidated by Legs, I'll join Foxfire as
 one of the seductive gals. I hear the college guys at Princeton look pretty
 good. By the way, I'm really enjoying reading everyone's insights. Very
 interesting. Sarah



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:37:26 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

Cyrano:

If we're going to dress up as JCO characters, perhaps I'll be John Quincy 
Zinn and try to use our energy to fuel a perpetual motion machine (we 
aren't doing such a bad job on the net now, are we?).

I agree that getting unanimity in a group such as this is expecting a 
lot.  But we aren't a governed body (leaving aside very discrete 
oversight from Randy), so I'm not comfortable with the idea of a decision 
to speak for the group--which is every one of us--by majority rule.  
We're certainly capable of speaking for ourselves as individuals, as we 
regularly show.

Steve



Subject: 
            Re: Delillo & Dost.
      Date: 
            Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:40:52 EST
      From: 
            composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)

Cyrano--
I love your explanation of UNDERWORLD.  Though brilliant in its own
right, I believe you are correct to say that DeLillo sqaundered a lot of
good stories.  There were promising beginnings, and as you say an opening
paralell to (thought not as skillful as) a good Doctorow-esque opening. 
It could have been edited more, I think.  WHITE NOISE was brilliant, but
I am partial to GREAT JONES STREET.

I love the idea of dressing up like Oates characters.  That is so funny. 
I, perhaps, would take Corky Corcoran from WHAT I LIVED FOR, or else that
one snoody guy from EXPENSIVE PEOPLE.  If those get taken, then I settle
for the patriarch in WE WERE THE MULVANEYS.

David C.
Michigan



Subject: 
          Re: the public eye
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:03:50 -0500
    From: 
          "Anthony" 

Butting in here.....I've met her a couple of times at lectures and book
things...it's pretty obvious she doesn't give two _________ about  being a
celebrity or media star.  She is, however, interested in being read.  You'd
figure it out in a minute if you met her.  She has an extremely direct and
quiet outward persona but bristles with intellectual power.  Doesn't play
the academic.    She pulls you immediately into hard focus, if you know what
I mean.

There are a couple of people I had the good fortune to meet who had that
kind of personal power, the kind of power you could actually sense and feel.
One of them was Muhammad Ali.  That's not so weird a comparison as one might
think, although I'd have to say that Ali struck me as being a little more
gentle.  I think Ali was accustomed to people being afraid of him whereas
you weren't inclined to be afraid of JCO until you met her.



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:27:54 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Yay for John---

I always thought htat Thalia had a certain masculine quality to her....



Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:29:17 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Or we could EACH write a poem about her and encircle her house---then at the
stroke of midnight we will read our individual poems at the same time......



Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:46:41 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 

Ellen--
You are the best.

My 2 cents on the birthday card issue... I think it's nice if we all do
something either electronic or real... 

- jen

"...and if i seem strange to you at times, it is only because i'm
switching off the power, trying to help us both, trying to see you and
me as the people we really are."

-- douglas coupland 



Subject: 
            Re: Delillo & Dost.
      Date: 
            Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:19:52 -0600
      From: 
            David Kodeski 


The black teenager? Cotter? 

He shows up in the most amazing places....if you read the novel
carefully you'd see that he's there during a Lenny Bruce section....the
realization that he was _there_ was so wonderfully arresting that I
simply had to stop reading...take a breath... go back and start the
passage again.

It's one of those beautiful moments in DeLillo's work where the plot or
sub plot is chugging along and *wham!* he hits you with an extremely
subtle bit of magic.

Cotter? He's there - but he's on the periphery. If you only read the
Lenny Bruce sections you'll see him. 

His story does not in any way fizzle out. 



To: jco@usfca.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:39:01 -0800
Subject: Re: R. Banks


Nick Nolte is playing Wade Whitehouse.  R. Banks talked about it on FRESH
AIRE on NPR last week.  He visited the movie set in Canada not long ago.

David C.
Michigan



Subject: 
          Re: R. Banks
     Date: 
          Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:14:52 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 

Daivd---

Thanks for the news about Russell Banks, and the info that Nick Nolte will be
playing Wade---what a perfect choice!




Ellen H



Subject: 
          JCO bio
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:04:13 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 

I just got my copy of INVISIBLE WRITER.  The photographs are fascinating.
(Good author photo of you, Greg.)  Thank goodness I finished my last
assignment a few hours ago because I'm going to be in deep seclusion over the
weekend.  This will be an eventful spring as we all read through this
fascinating biography together.  Cyrano



Subject: 
              Arnold Friend's secret code
         Date: 
              Fri, 06 Mar 1998 16:14:57 -0800
        From: 
              Randy Souther 


Was everyone as disappointed as I was when you first heard the "69"
solution to the secret code in "Where are you going, where have you
been?" ? Well, another solution has passed my way, and I don't recall
ever seeing this published anywhere; if I'm overlooking something, I'm
sure someone will let me know.

(By the way, this came to me thirdhand, and I am attempting to track
down its origin so that someone will receive due credit.)

The secret code: 33, 19, 17

In the Old Testament, counting backwards (don't roll your eyes yet!),
the 33rd section is Judges.

Chapter 19, verse 17, reads as follows (in my translation):

"And the old man lifted up his eyes and saw the wayfarer in the street
of the city; and the old man said to him, Where are you going? And
whence do you come?"

I will leave the subject matter of this chapter to the rest of you to
ponder; but this verse is too much of a coincidence (for me, anyway) to
dismiss.

Randy



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:19:26 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Kim:

I hope you'll keep us posted about how your efforts go to persuade
publishers to take JCO translations that you do.  I don't have any
brilliant suggestions for you, but I wanted to send you my encouragement. 
I suspect that U.S.  publishers would be very hard-hearted in a situation
such as this, where a writer's previous work had done badly and where the
prospective translator was a student rather than a well-established
professional.  Are Korean publishers more open-minded and willing to take
risks in a good cause?  I'd like to think so, but I've spent some time
worrying on your behalf. 

It's extremely difficult to understand what sort of publishing strategy
was behind the decision to use "Zombie" to introduce JCO to Korean
readers.  I found "Zombie" to be a worthwhile book, but I think it's a
difficult work to appreciate for anyone not familiar with a variety of
JCO's work and with her concerns about violence;  as the Group's comments
show, not everyone likes the book even among those who do know a lot about
JCO's fiction (I suspect that the main character's thoughts sound even
more repulsive in Korean than they do in English;  have you read both
versions, Kim?  If so, how do you compare them?).  Did the publishers
think that they could market "Zombie" as something sensationalistic and
scandalous?  If so, I gather that the strategy backfired.  Or did they
publish it because it just happened to be the latest novel JCO had
completed at the time?  I think your idea of making a careful choice of a
short story collection is much wiser.  I hope that whatever people you
talk with at publishers' offices will be frank with you about what they
have done or what they want to do in the future, and that they will be
open to the broader information about JCO that you can give them. 

Steve



Subject: 
          Birthday Action
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:48:31 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

Hi Group:

If we're really going to do something for JCO's birthday, I suspect we 
need to take the next step.  I'm going to suggest a decision-making process, 
not because I have delusions of grandeur, but just because no one else 
has, so far (of course I'm open to everyone else's alternatives).

I'd like to suggest that we start actually coming to agreement, and that 
we set ourselves a time period for doing it to help ourselves use the 
available time effectively.  Can everyone who wants to please respond to 
the following questions by March 10 (well, we have to choose some day):

1.  Is it ok to address a birthday acknowledgement to JCO from "the 
following members of Tone Clusters" (this phraseology is meant not to 
include against their will people who don't want to be included)?

2.  Should we use electronic means or paper means to send our message,
assuming we do send one?  If you vote for electronic, please explain the
sort of thing you want, and describe if possible how it could be done or
who could do it.  If you vote for paper, please specify whether you prefer
a card or something else (please say what) or perhaps both.  If possible,
please include concrete ideas for how this could be organized (for
example, if we do a card, should it be just one that we somehow send
around the world, or should we do several cards by geographical area,
etc). 

3.  Please say what, if anything, you could do to help with whatever we 
do, if you didn't describe it in your answer to question #2.

I know that people have already made various concrete suggestions, but 
I think it may be a good think to have all our suggestions concentrated 
in the messages sent during a short, defined period of time.  I also know 
that I haven't addressed a lot of things in the 3 questions above, but I 
think we can take up the other issues after we have the answers to these 
questions.  But, if you think there's something that needs to be dealt 
with before March 10 that I've left out, please say so.

I hope my doing this doesn't seem overbearing, but it just felt like 
someone needed to.

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: JCO bio
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:50:51 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Cyrano:

Is that a review copy?  If not, who has the book actually available now? 
I'm afraid I may have less money available in April than I do at the
moment, so I'd be very interested to know how you ordered your copy. 

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: JCO bio
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:54:47 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Cyrano---

YOU HAVE A COPY OF GREG"S BOOK?????  HOW DID THAT HAPPEN???  WHERE CAN I GET
ONE???

Er, excuse me for shouting---my life is pretty much on hold till I read that
book


Best wishes
Ellen Haggar



Subject: 
              Re: Birthday Action
         Date: 
              Fri, 06 Mar 1998 18:15:12 -0800
        From: 
              Randy Souther 


1.    I don't think you have to qualify who the "card" is from. It is
from Tone Clusters. Not everyone is going to care to sign it--just as
not everyone posts messages in the group, and not everyone is included
in the Tone Clusters archive.

2.    Paper I think is nicer to receive, as you can touch it, hold it,
tack it on your wall, (throw it in the garbage), etc. However it would
indeed be a trial to coordinate the sending of several cards all over
the world (it would take several) and hope none gets lost at the last
minute. On the other hand, electronic would be the easiest to manage,
and if not exactly warm, at least appropriate to this forum. If we went
this route, I could set up a "card" on a web page. Such a page would
never be public. Since there would be no link to it anywhere on
Celestial Timepiece, the only way someone could access it would be if
they knew the exact address of the page; and the address would be given
only to JCO and the members of the group.

Thanks, Steve, for taking the initiative.

Randy



Subject: 
          Re: Arnold Friend's secret code
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:15:52 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, Randy.  That Bible reference blew my mind before I had a chance to roll my
eyes.  It's gotta be relevant.  Isn't it amazing how well the 69 reference
works on one level of the story while this other interpretation is equally
effective on another level?  Wow.  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Arnold Friend's secret code
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:18:46 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Hey Randy,

Cyrano is right, the Bible reference is a mind-blower---next time I teach the
story I'll be able to give my students a  second possible meaning so they
won't spend the whole time giggling over 69.......

Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: JCO bio
     Date: 
          Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:36:52 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


NO PROBLEM WITH YOUR YELLIN'
ELLEN --
   I let out a shriek when my friendly fed-x man hollered from his truck that
he'd just left a book at my house. I ran the last 3 blocks home.   And there
it was ... a review copy from Dutton.  
     Greg, I just finished the chapters up to and including JCO's
undergraduate career.  I do enjoy your style.  So many literary biographies
are loaded down with unnecessary detail, but you get right to work.  And it's
very engaging how you work in references to JCO's stories and novels without
capsizing the narrative flow with tedious, blow-by-blow plot rehashes.  Quotes
from JCO's parents, friends, teachers, classmates, etc. are well deployed.  So
far, I like this as much as my favorite lit bio -- Joseph Frank's series on
Dostoevsky.  And I'm not saying that just because my name's on your
contributors acknowledgement  list.  Cyrano



Subject: 
              Re: Birthday Action
         Date: 
              Sat, 07 Mar 1998 00:11:47 -0500
        From: 
              "Thomas A. Hulslander" 
Steve
Hi, all....
Regarding the birthday card idea, I too think that a paper card is
nicer, more personal, but that it may be difficult to coordinate a
global message...
I like the web page idea for a card...considering how well JCO guards
her privacy, it may be the easiest way to send our best wishes on her
birthday.
Take care,
Krista



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Action
     Date: 
          Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:12:38 EST
    From: 
          Pacopaco22 


Randy:

I think your idea of the electronic card is the best so far.  Count me in!!

Jorge Reyes



Subject: 
          Re: JCO bio
     Date: 
          Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:16:25 EST
    From: 
          RJohn713 

I'm fascinated to learn that you have received a finished copy of INVISIBLE
WRITER...since I have not!  I guess the author is always the last to know.

Thanks for your kind words.

Greg J.



Subject: 
            Re: JCO bio
      Date: 
            Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:17:54 -0800
      From: 
            composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)


I am burning to read Greg's book; I write a literary and library news
column for our local paper, and I convinced every area library director
to order it just so I could devote a couple of columns to it.  This will
rank right up there with the best literary biographies and
autobiographies I have read lately, including The Lives of Norman Mailer
by Carl Rollyson; Palimpsest by Gore Vidal (*****); and Raymond Chandler
by an author whose name escapes me at the moment.  Greg, this should be
great!

Does anyone know anything about a book called MILKWEED by Mary Gardner? 
Our book club is reading it for the next selection, and I have never
heard of it or the author.  Hmmmm, let me know please.

David C.
Michigan

p.s.-- Had anyone read Bret Lott's book, THE HUNT CLUB, yet?  Wow!  What
a great piece of literature from one of the South's most talented
writers.  I'm going to B&N today to get some more of his books (even
thought they're not even close in genre to THE HUNT CLUB).




   Subject: 
          Birthday
     Date: 
          Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:20:23 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

Randy's generous suggestion of setting up a web page that only we and JCO 
would have access to is such a wonderful idea that surely this is the way 
to go.

As far as content goes, I suppose we'll all do whatever we think 
appropriate, but I had an idea that I'd like to throw out for everyone's 
consideration:  what about finding quotations from JCO's work that either 
seem appropriate to the occasion or that have special meanings to us 
personally?  We could add any individual comments that might seem 
necessary or helpful.  Wouldn't there be a certain beauty in offering 
JCO's work back to her, as seen through the eyes of her readers?

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: Arnold Friend's secret code
     Date: 
          Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:25:22 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Randy:

I suppose you're right about Judges.  The reference fits only very
loosely, but is no more forced than Biblical references commonly are.  But
it leaves me wondering about JCO's judgment in this case.  Having 69 as
the solution to the secret code seems to fit Arnold Friend's gross
personality very nicely.  In and of itself, I don't see that we should
have expected JCO to make Arnold Friend's reference any more subtle; 
indeed, I'm inclined to say that 33 19 17 is already too subtle, even if
the answer were only 69.  As she presents him, wouldn't Arnold Friend have
been more likely to use a more blatant code, such as 96 or 609?  The text
seems to imply that Connie has gotten the point of the code.  In an
innumerate society such as ours, how probable is it that an adolescent who
probably considers numbers no more than she can help would instantly think
to sum up the elements of the code and recognize 69 as the result?  (Her
response only makes sense to me if she actually is thinking of 69, rather
than failing to get the code and pretending that she has, much less than
catching the Biblical reference, which ought to have horrified her). 

But apparently the Biblical reference is meant.  Would Arnold Friend have
done such a thing?  OK, a reference to the Bible is far more likely than a
reference to any other written source, but is Arnold Friend presented as
someone who would make even a Biblical reference?  (Surely a reference to
a pop song or a movie or TV show would be much more to be expected.)
Perhaps he's the sort of psychotic who has Biblical/religious-based
delusions (Enoch in "Man Crazy" may not be any more literary than Arnold
Friend, but even Enoch doesn't spout specific Biblical passages, as far as
I remember--though I may have forgotten or missed some, and wouldn't put
it past JCO to have stuck Biblical allusions into his speech, perhaps
without implying that Enoch was conscious of them).  If Arnold Friend were
this sort of person, I suppose he could be sollipsistic enough to put a
Biblical reference on his car and to taunt his intended victims with it
without expecting, or even wanting, them to get it before it was too late
(and why should he expect many people, least of all his victims, to be
familiar enough with the Bible to get the reference, especially if you
have to count backwards to arrive at Judges?).  But if Arnold Friend is
this sort of person, wouldn't it show up in other behavior or references? 
For, aside from this one thing, he seems to be working entirely within a
pop cultural framework.  If I've missed something about this, I'll
appreciate being set straight;  as far as I can see at the moment, the
Biblical reference is a sort of esthetic sore thumb.  JCO seems to say
"Well, I get this, and so do you if you're clever."  She has done that
elsewhere (notably in "Winterthurn"), but in the context of a very
different tone.  I don't feel that it works here. 

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: JCO bio
     Date: 
          Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:15:44 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, Greg.  I'm really surprised I got it so soon.  I'd requested it long ago
-- that may be why.  As a rule, I get JCO's Dutton novels late ... I miss out
on the galley copies and have to wait for the finished book.  As a reviewer
yourself, you know what a pain that can be.  But back to your great book: I
loved the part in the childhood chapters where she's reading a comicbook while
flying in her father's airplane and forgets to buckle her seatbelt.  That's a
whole new image: JCO with a comicbook!  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Biblical Code?
     Date: 
          Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:08:28 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Help!

Not being a believer, I don't usually look for Biblical codes in things, 
but after Randy's message about Arnold Friend, I've temporarily become 
sensitized.  I've found something in "Mysteries of Winterthurn" (which 
I'm still in the process of rereading--it's going very slowly) that may 
or may not be a Biblical code, and which I'd appreciate the Group's 
advice about:

In "The Bloodstained Bridal Gown", JC0 italicizes a set of three numbers 
which are in the right value range possibly to produce a Biblical text 
according to the method that Randy gave:  23, 19, 24 (the last one 
actually in the form "more than TWO DOZEN", my capitals representing 
JCO's italics).  These are the number of ax blows suffered by the murder 
victims.

I tried locating a text by considering Judges as 33, then counting
backwards to 23, which gave me Esther.  Now, Esther, with all its gore and
revenge, does seem a very promising book in the context of "The
Bloodstained Bridal Gown", but it has only ten chapters.  I was ready to
give up on these numbers, but I noticed that there is only one chapter in
Esther (chapter 9) which has as many as either 19 or 24 verses.  Verse 19
refers to rejoicing over vengeance killings, while verses 24 and following
("more than TWO DOZEN") refer to how Haman's evildoing rebounded against
him, and provide Esther's happy ending.  I could find these as plausible
references in terms of how "The Bloodstained Bridal Gown" works (I can't
be more specific here without turning this message into a spoiler, which
I'd rather not do).  But the relevant paragraph in "Winterthurn" has no
reference to the number 9 (perhaps it doesn't need to, as only in chapter
9 of Esther are there verses 19 and 24+?).  On the other hand, the
paragraph does contain a veiled allusion to the bloody murders in the
previous sections of the book, about which everyone in Winterthurn now has
amnesia.  And one of the consequences of the "Devil's Half-Acre" murders
was what happened with Isaac Rosenwald, which brings to mind the danger to
Jews that is raised in Esther. 

So, I'm left feeling really uncertain.  Have I found a legitimate 
reference (there is a least one other unmistakable Biblical reference in 
"Winterthurn" in the name of the character Simon Esdras, and there are 
non-Biblical references as obscure as this but about which I'm certain)?  
Is the 23, 19, 24 a true Biblical code, only I've misunderstood how to 
locate the text?  Or is it just a coincidence that JCO highlighted three 
more or less plausible numbers?  (Cyrano--does "Invisible Writer" say 
whether or not JCO has a fondness for this sort of thing?).

Steve



From: Cyranomish 
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:18:21 EST
Subject: Re: another bright idea


One feeding frenzy leads to another, and some people are NEVER satisfied.  I'm
halfway through INVISIBLE WRITER -- the part where Greg's talking about the
JCO collection at Syracuse University and some very interesting completed
manuscripts that haven't been published.  So I think to myself -- damn! I want
to read SUNDAY BLUES (short stories) and JIGSAW (novel), but I can't go to
Syracuse right now.  Why doesn't Syracuse University Press publish them?
They're sitting on a gold mine, it seems to me, because the books would sell.
What if I wrote to Syracuse University Press (1600 Jamesville Ave.; Syracuse
NY 13244-5160; phone 315-443-2597; email ramandel@summon3.syr.edu.)and
explained that I for one think it's a great idea and why don't they do it?
What do you think?  Cyrano



Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:36:42 -0800 (PST)
From: joyce l merritt 
Subject: Re: another bright idea


Cyrano:

Does "Invisible Writer" say why "Sunday Blues" and "Jigsaw" haven't been
published?  If JCO has wanted to publish them but for some reason
couldn't, no doubt any encouragement from us to the powers that be would
be a good thing.  But did JCO give these manuscripts to Syracuse
University because she didn't want to publish them, yet for whatever
reason was not prepared to destroy them?  If that were the case, wouldn't
it be a good idea to find out how JCO feels now, before possibly
advocating publication against her will?  Of course, we're entitled to
disagree with her as to whether or not a manuscript deserves publication,
but I should think that, at least as long as she is alive, her wishes
ought to be decisive even in the case of manuscripts over which she may no
longer have legal control (I don't know what the arrangement with Syracuse
University is)?  I suppose she must be resigned to the fact that, after
her death, even her phone messages are liable to be published, but at that
point it won't bother her.  Does this make sense to you?  As I haven't 
read "Invisible Writer" yet, I'm not sure of the context. 

Steve



Subject: 
            Re: Biblical Code?
      Date: 
            Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:02:30 EST
      From: 
            composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)


I think that all literature, in fact, has some ties to the Bible.  All
themes of writing (good vs. evil, good conquers evil, etc., woman in
peril, etc.) have a biblical base.  Obviously JCO is far from a Christian
writer, so I believe her biblical ties are no more than creative, quirky,
associations.  Being a Christian, and a believer to use Steve's word,
there are many things about JCO's writing that I have fundamental
disagreements with.  This does not, however, diminish my appreciation of
her talent or the entertaining and masterful works of art she continues
to produce.  My criticism of a JCO book for a Christian publication would
be much different than my criticism, say, for "Michigan Quarterly"
because I am looking at different aspects of the book in different
lights.

About the Judges reference: it is a plausible and perhaps correct
analyzation of Arnold Friend's code.  I think that it exceeds far beyond
other theories (such as the sexual theme, which I have argued for in the
past) in its validity.  Here, now, we finally have some substantial
proof.  I am dying to know what Joyce has to say.

David C.
Michigan



From: Shmoopak 
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:42:40 EST
Subject: Re: Birthday Card


Let's do it.  Let's send the birthday card!
Sue



Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:53:15 -0800
From: SOUTHERR@ALPHA.USFCA.EDU
Subject: secret code


Well, my face is red. Turns out the Judges explanation has been in the
JCO criticism since 1982. Mark Robson: Explicator, v40 n4 Summer 1982 
p59-60. Much of that short article seems rather dubious to me, except
for the one small point about the Judges reference. C. Harold Hurley
in a later article practically calls Robson a fool, and posits the "69"
argument as much more plausible and appropriate.

Randy



Subject: 
          Re: another bright idea
     Date: 
          Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:30:27 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Cyrano---

You go, boyfriend--I would LOVE to read another novel and another volume of
short stories---I don't mean to bite the hand that I read from, so to speak,
but the soon to be published Gothic just doesn't mean as much to me as some of
JCO's other boooks.  That doesn't mean I won't be getting it of course...


Ellen Haggar



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 98 10:51:00
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 

Kim

I meant to respond to your comment about Raymond Carver.

He grew up in the same town that I did. I find his stories really 
disorienting. All those strange people plopped down in the middle of the 
real world. Some fishermen find a girl`s body in the mountains and leave it 
there while they go fishing, then the body gets shipped to a funeral home 
that was two blocks from my house. Two men in their twenties follow some 
girls up the Painted Rocks where I went every year in Cub Scouts and kill 
them there. Wierd stories.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 98 11:03:26
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


Harvey

Maybe it already is a JCO story. From Nightside or maybe from the 
Seduction. I can`t remember the name. A fan writes an adulatory letter to a 
famous musician. Well, not so famous maybe. He gets no response and writes 
letter after letter each a little stranger and a little more insulting, 
eventually threatening.

Not that anyone has been threatening in this discussion, although some of 
the birthday suggestions do seem a little aggressive.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 98 10:33:02
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


Kim

I wasn`t at school last week and I`m just starting to look at the e-mail 
that`s been waiting for me. Perhaps you`ve already received a lot of 
comments about short story collections but in case no one has answered you 
yet, I would like to make some suggestions. Unlike several people in this 
discussion group, I haven`t read all of the collections but I do think that 
the stories are the best introduction to Joyce Carol Oates.

The Wheel of Love (1970) is, for me, the essential Joyce Carol Oates 
collection. (But it is also the first book that I read by Oates.) Many of 
the stories in it are fairly well-known. The two collections that follow, 
Marriages and Infidelities (1972) and The Goddess and Other Women (1974), 
are very similar and almost equally excellent. I think of these three 
collections as a trilogy but I don`t know if they are intended to be or 
not. Marriages and Infidelities concludes with interpretations of seven 
classic stories by other writers. By The North Gate (1963) and Upon The 
Sweeping Flood (1966) are also excellent with some well-known stories.

Each of the three anthologies, Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been 
(1974) and (1993) and Wild Saturday (1984), seems to focus upon The Wheel 
of Love with selections from other collections. Wild Saturday is almost 
entirely from The Wheel of Love with one story each from Marriages and 
Infidelities and The Goddess and Other Women. Half the stories in the 
first Where Are You Going are from The Wheel of Love, The others are taken 
from collections ranging from By the North Gate to The Seduction (1975). A 
third of the stories in the second Where Are You Going are from The Wheel 
of Love and nearly a third are from Marriages and Infidelities. The rest 
come from By the North Gate, Upon the Sweeping Flood, The Goddess, and 
Nightside (1977). Each of the Where Are You Going collections also includes 
a couple of otherwise uncollected stories.

I think each of the first five collections offers a variety of stories 
typical of Oates, a characteristic balance that forms part of a trajectory 
that continues through The Seduction and Other Stories and on to Will You 
Always Love Me. (which is also an excellent collection).

Several of the other collections seem to be weighted slightly toward a 
specific theme or focus. Among these are The Poisoned Kiss, Crossing The 
Border, Nightside, All The Good People That I`ve Left Behind, A Sentimental 
Education, and Haunted: Tales of the Grotesque. The individual stories in 
these books (except The Poisoned Kiss) might be interchangeable with 
stories in other books but each collection as a whole seems to develop a 
specific aspect of her writing. All of them are very good. 

The stories of The Poisoned Kiss are intellectual and often fantastic in 
plot or characters. Most of the stories in Crossing The Border deal with 
crossing or not crossing different types of borders both physical and 
psychological. The stories in All The Good People That I`ve Left Behind are 
about separating from and losing track of people as the title suggests. The 
final story in this collection is a long narrative that ties together and 
gives added resonance to the earlier stories. A Sentimental Education has 
only seven stories; the last three especially are about learning something. 
The final story is an extended treatment of incest, child abuse and what 
seems to me to be a study of a serial killer at an opening stage of his 
career. (Or would we call being a serial killer a career?) In Haunted and 
in Nightside there is a focus upon highly subjective narrative viewpoints 
and a blurring of reality. In Nightside there is an allegory on translation 
that might serve to organize a course on translation theory. (In fact, I 
gave it to the teacher of translation theory at the university for just 
that purpose.)

I can`t comment on seven collection which I haven't read or have read only 
in part: The Hungry Ghosts, Raven`s Wing, The Assignation, Oates In Exile, 
Heat and Other Stories, Where is Here, and Demon and Other Tales.

I think that, generally speaking, Oates`short story collections are more 
consistent than her novels. Nearly all of the stories in nearly all of the 
collections are compelling. There is a great deal of variety from one story 
to the next yet there is rarely a story that is not recognizably hers. I 
think of The Wheel of Love as my favorite book by Oates but each of the 
other books is filled with stories that I think are important, often 
unique. There is no collection that seems to me to be less strong than the 
strongest. Of the twenty-six novels that I have read there are some that 
have left far more impression than others. I only remember a few images of 
With Shuddering Fall, for example. (Although I`ve noticed in this 
discussion group that there doesn`t seem to be any consensus on which are 
the most striking and which less so.) There are some novels that were much 
more difficult for me to read. Whereas it is usually difficult to put down 
an Oates book, I sometimes found it difficult to pick up Assassins or Angel 
of Light. I haven`t felt like that about any of the short story 
collections. Perhaps any novel would have supporters and detractors while a 
short story collection has a little for everyone.

Every collection you read will contain favorite stories you would hate 
to leave out. maybe you could think about seeking the author`s permission 
to make your own selection, translating a group of stories that appeal to 
you and that you feel would be more appealing to your public. I think that 
must be a fairly common practice in translation, isn't it?

The disadvantage of making your own selection is that there are a lot of 
stories and it`s almost impossible to read more than one in a day. You 
always need time to stop and think after reading a story by Oates.

And if it`s not possible to read more than one collection, try The Wheel of 
Love. If you can read only two consider Will You Always Love Me.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



From: diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)
Subject: Re: Birthday Card
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:45:21 -0500 (EST)


Frank,

        You're right about that story: Passions and Meditations, from
The Seduction. I re-encountered it sometime last summer by accident
(not exactly by accident - I was browsing through old JCO because I had
recently joined the discussion group) and indeed I had that story in mind
when I made that previous remark on writing to JCO.

        I'm with you on recommending JCO's collections The Wheel of Love,
Marriages and Infidelities, The Goddess as the "classic" JCO collections.
These stories, and her "Detroit" era in general are the core, the defining, 
JCO works - for me anyway. I wonder if these stories resonante with 
JCO's second generation of readers - of whom the majority of this
discussion group seems to be composed.

Harvey Diamond




   Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:37:30 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

Harvey:

I think you've got a good point about "resonating".  Do I gather correctly
that you read the Detroit works either when they came out or when they
were relatively new, and before you knew her other work (such as Eden
County)? 

The novels from "You Must Remember This" to "What I Lived For" introduced
me to JCO (as they came out) and tended to define her for me, though now I
would say that the Gothic novels are even greater achievements in a purely
artistic sense--while I recognize that much of her later work has certain
goals that Gothic novels wouldn't be appropriate means of achieving (which
makes it interesting that she's going to publish a Gothic novel this
year).  I've only read back (and only in the novels) as far as
"Bellefleur" while trying to keep up with a selection of her most recent
work, but I mean to get to the Detroit period writings, I hope starting
before the end of this year.  When I do, I'll try to keep this question of
how they resonate in mind, so I can offer you a specific comparison.  I
wonder just how well we can change our original images of major writers,
even when we recognize that there's a point to doing it? 

Steve



Subject: 
         Re: secret code
    Date: 
         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:49:01 -0800 (PST)
   From: 
         joyce l merritt 

Randy:

I don't think your face needs to be anything other than its normal hue. 
There is enough JCO criticism out there that it's hardly a surprise if any
of our bright ideas has occurred to someone else.  If Robson's article
consists largely of dubious thoughts, you've done a service by bringing up
the Judges reference in a different context.  And, while I would
emphatically agree with Hurley that 69 is artistically more appropriate
than Judges, the match of "Where are you going?  And where do you come
from?" and of the fate of the woman in Judges with the title and implied
ending of JCO's story is just too close to be a coincidence, especially
when the title is a bit odd (or has always seemed so to me, anyway) unless
you take the Judges reference into account, when it makes complete sense. 

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:53:28 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 

Frank

Er--in  case you were referring to my suggestion of a birthday strip-o-
gram-----you do understand that was a joke, don't you?

Ellen Haggar



Subject: 
          Re: secret code
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:00:41 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 

Y'all---

I don't see the problem with the two meanings of the numbers in Where Are You
Going.  Obviously, the 69 is what Arnold would use, and what we might
expect---the Biblical reference is for the reader, or at least for readers
like me who check numbers in titles by authors as careful as JCO


Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: Invisible Writer
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:07:09 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 

Having read INVISIBLE WRITER over the weekend, my overriding feeling is
gratitude for living in the same era as JCO.  What a privilege to watch her
career unfold!  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Invisible Writer
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:10:28 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Cyrano---

Would you KNOCK IT OFF lol----try to remember there are mere mortals out here
who have to wait until APRIL to read the bio-----you tease 

White-knuckled in anticipation

Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: another bright idea
     Date: 
          Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:23:03 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, Steve.  Good points.  The fact that SUNDAY BLUES goes back to the good old
1970s makes it especially tantalizing to me.  Also -- having learned that
another JCO 70s work, HOW LUCIAN FLOREY DIED AND WAS BORN (novel) was
destroyed by JCO a few years ago -- I'm feeling a bit spooked and hope SUNDAY
BLUES doesn't suffer a similar fate.  Obviously, the author has the final word
on any work's fate, but I got involved with the characters in LUCIAN FLOREY
when a chapter of it appeared in a long-ago NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, so I can't
avoid feeling a tad possessive.  Guess it's necessary to wait and hope.
Cyrano



Subject: 
          Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:22:21 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Matthew A Cheney 


Here's a question for those of you with better knowledge of the earlier
work than me: in 1973 JCO published an excerpt "from a novel in progress"
called "Meredith Dawe".  It was published in the Winter 1973 Triquarterly
and reprinted in the twentieth anniversary issue of the magazine.  It's an
epistolary story made of up Meredith Dawe's letters to the judge who
sentenced her to prison for drug possession.  In fifteen pages she manages
to make you question every sentence of this fictional "reality", and it
ends up both oddly humorous and rather disturbing, as if Nabokov or maybe
Borges decided to write a story for Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine.

In any case, it may be from a discarded novel, or it may be from one that
was published, but since I haven't yet read anything before Bellefleur I
just wouldn't know...

Thanks,
Matt Cheney



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:43:25 -0500 (CDT)
    From: 
          weathermon@tarleton.edu


Meredith Dawe is a male character from Do With Me What You Will.  If
you're interested in the letters (and they are powerful) you should look
into reading the novel, as I'm sure there's more to his narrative in the
novel than the short story may have provided (though I haven't read the
short story, and it's been a few months since I've read the novel).

Kalene Weathermon



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 98 08:51:01
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


Ellen

Yes, your strip-o-gram  and quite a few other suggestions by others were 
obviously jokes. I took them seriously tongue-in-cheek.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:58:35 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Matthew A Cheney 


Thanks!  I'll check it out.  Pretty strange that ever since I first read
the story about seven years ago I've always assumed Meredith Dawe was
female...  (I had an aunt named Meredith, maybe that explains it.)
Looking over it now, there's nothing to suggest either gender that I can
tell, though I'd assume a female character's letters would be marked from
a women's penitentiary.  And for years I thought of Oates as "the lady who
wrote that great women's prison story"!

--Matt



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:00:40 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)


Steve,

        My "formative" JCO years were probably from the late seventies
to the early eighties - Them, Wonderland, Do With Me What You Will,
and especially the short story collections from the Wheel of Love "trilogy"
(as Frank characterized it), Nightside, Crossing the Border. While I appreciate
and enjoy her "rural" settings as well, it is probably those previous
"modern" (it was modern then at least!) Detroit-era settings that
define(d) JCO for me and to which I owe my "loyalty". As you point out,
I am wondering what meaning these older works have for people who may have
come to JCO through works written, say, after 1985. Do they look "dated"?
Do they appear "derivative" of her later work and/or less accomplished?
(The shadow that the future, i.e. now, casts over the past.) Are her
later readers actually interested at all in reading her earlier works,
or do they simply assume they will look "old" and less interesting than
the work that is yet to come. As for me, I have no real interest in
the gothic novels, for instance - I tried Bellefleur when it came out but 
didn't really take to that style, at least at novel length, and don't care
to invest time in the others, now that time is a scarcer commodity.

        You ask how well we can change our original images of writers -
a good question! Not only is it difficult to change this image - it requires
a certain courage to make the attempt, for it will erase perhaps
something important and special. To take what may be a controversial position
in our supposed-to-be voraciously adaptable  and open-minded America
(and JCO discussion group)let me try out the view that I do not wish to 
change that original image, and that each new (and old!) JCO work read 
endangers that  image. It puts me in mind of something by Naipaul in "A Bend 
in the River" about the airplane and "going back" (to where you've been). 
You go back often enough and "You trample on the past, you crush it. 
In the beginning it is like trampling on a garden. In the end you are 
just walking on ground." Artists are forever annoyed at fans who 
cannot develop and change with them - but the fans are not really loyal
to the artist, but to the work; to "Joyce Carol Oates" and not necessarily
to Joyce Carol Oates.  

Harvey



From: "Sunhyung Kim" 
Subject: Re: need your help
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:51:31 +0900


Steve,

I'm genuinely touched by your concern. I really thank you.

Yes, I confess it's harder than I thought.
Actually the main obstacle is the economic crisis in Korea. A few months
ago, it would have been much easier. Especially the publishing business took
all the shock without a safety buffer. One of the reasons is that Korean
publishing business depends heavily on translated works. (this is natural
for a non-English speaking country) When publishers print a translated
work, they are to pay the royalty on the dollar basis. Which is a very
heavy load to bear now with the exchange rate almost doubled, (Practically
nobody wants to print foreign books these days) In addition, paper price
literally soared to the sky. Many old and established publishing houses fell
down, and are still falling down minute by minute.  All the people think
this is not a good time to start a new project. Apparently we have to wait
for this icy storm to pass. It would take a few months at least.
In the meantime, I'm planning to read as many works of JCO as possible.

I still have this dream to make JCO known to everybody in Korea someday.
Like Milan Kundera or  Murakami Haruki or Umberto Eco. That's why I
think of this way and that. How to do marketing. Which work to start
with....etc. I have a good cause worrying about who's gonna translate
her if ever she's gonna be translated.  Korean publishers are very sloppy
about selecting translators for contemporary literary texts. Classic
literature(Milton, Shakespeare......at least Faulkner, Woolf) is trusted in
the relatively safe hands of literature-major professors. However,
contemporary literary texts are all mixed up with cheap popular fictions and
prone to be victims of careless translation of so called "professional"
translators. I only wish her work will never be done by someone who doesn't
appreciate her magically charming prose and razor-sharp insights. That's why
I want to take up the task myself. I'm sure I could do her justice 'cause I
never read a JCO text without turning every sentence into a Korean
equivalent and I'm doing this almost unconsciously!

I also agree with you that Zombie was a bad idea. I read the translated
version of Zombie last year (before I knew JCO and Tone Clusters). I
remember it was not done very badly, though the style felt a little flat.
But I
can't really compare because I didn't read the original text. Anyhow the
book certainly was not a brilliant gem and failed to let me take interest in
the
author. I think it may be a good read to a reader who's familiar with
JCO(now I'm thinking of rereading it), but not a good way to start
reading her works. Besides, I don't think the whole idea work for Korean
readers. A serial killer is not a familiar subject to most of them.  Even
the
title doesn't sound very fascinating(how about you natives?). So I also came
up with the same question about the publishing strategy.  I suspect it was
the combination of both the possibilities you suggested. I don't think the
editor knew very much about JCO. Very unfortunate.

Kim

P.S.:  Steve,  though I'm a 'student' in a technical sense('cause I'm taking
a doctoral course), I am a professional(though not all-time) translator and
currently teaching literature as a lecturer at two colleges. I dare say I'm
quite a
qualified translator. My major is American literature and I translated
several books including A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. My next
project is a C.S. Lewis, the hilarious Screwtape Letters.



From: "Sunhyung Kim" 
Subject: Yay!
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:52:25 +0900


Today I received my own copy of Bellefleur and What I Lived For sent in
by Amazon.com.  Look coool. Yay! I love the paperback cover of 
Bellefleur.

At the present I'm engaged in reading Robert Hellenga's Sixteen
Pleasures.
So far I find it very enjoyable. I liked the train episode. What was the 
general response to this book in the States and the U.K.? I think 
Hellenga's brilliant in a female voice(Robert is a man, right?).

Kim



From: "Sunhyung Kim" 
Subject: Thanks to you 
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:55:19 +0900

Thanks to all of you who responded to my previous post
Now I've got a fairly good idea where to start.
First I ordered "Will you always love me?" and "Haunted". Then I will go on
to "Where are you going, where have you been?" and "Heat and other stories".
"Nightside" I tried to find, but It is classified as "hard-to-find" on the
Amazon.com. I'll check the American Cultural Institute library first.

I'll keep you posted.

Kim



Subject: 
          Re: Yay!
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:22:43 -0000
    From: 
          "Gary Couzens" 

Kim,
 
I have to confess I hadn't heard of Robert Hellenga's Sixteen Pleasures, so I
 can't say what the response to it in the UK was.  Sounds like my loss.
 According to Bookpages (www.bookpages.co.uk) it is in print. If I see a copy
 I'll let you know if there are any review quotes on the paperback!
 
Gary Couzens



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:39:40 -0600
    From: 
          JonWendell@webtv.net (John Eggers)

Was the character's name in "Do With Me What You Will" Meridith Dawe?  I
don't own the novel
(but read it about 2 years ago)  I thought the name was Mered Dawe, and
was male.  This
character did write letters to the judge the sentenced him for a
marijuana charge (I think)



Subject: 
          Re: Douglas Coupland
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:04:18 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 


Cyrano--

Read GIAC a few times over...
curious to hear what your reaction was.

- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:23:46 -0500 (CDT)
    From: 
          weathermon@tarleton.edu


After I posted my response, I began to wonder if I was correct.  Of
course, the character in the novel was male, but I am unsure if his name
was Mered Dawe or Meredeth Dawe.  He was definitely referred to as Mered.
I don't have the novel with me at work, so I'll check at home.  And wasn't
the marijuana charge the only thing they could actually sentence him for,
since his real "crime" was of a more political-activist nature?  I have a
difficult time recalling much of the secondary action in the novel.

Kalene Weathermon



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:03:11 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 

Hi, that name sounds so familiar, but the only thing I come up with is an
episode in the novel DO WITH ME WHAT YOU WILL in which a young male "white
panther" is sentenced to a long prison sentence for possession of a joint and
he writes a long, hysterical letter to the judge.  When you read the new JCO
biography, you will discover the real-life incident behind that story.  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:18:05 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


O.K. I've got DO WITH ME WHAT YOU WILL here in my lap.  On page 474 begins
"Meredith Dawe's" letter from Michigan State Prison to the judge who sentenced
him. Several other letters follow, each more nutty than the last as the
hopelessness of his case becomes apparent.  As I recall, some of his friends
nicknamed him "Mered" for short, a very appropriate pun, considering the deep
shit he's in by the end of the novel.  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Meredith Dawe
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:07:51 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Cyrano et al

I will be interested to hear the real life story behind Meredith Dawe,
especially because I think his characterization and actions constitute one of
the few boring parts of a a truly great novel, DO WITH ME WHAT YOU LIVE.  This
may be one of the dated parts of JCO's works that Steve refers to-----there
was a long series of novels around the same time in which a rich drug-addled
young man spouts pseudo-profunditites and we are supposed to care.......

Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: bibliography
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 98 15:34:44
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


Randy 

I just tried the bibliography again. Got the same message and got booted 
out of the internet again. The message that comes up if I try to enter the 
bibliography is 

Bad HTLM. Use trace to diagnose.

The section I`ve tried to enter is the articles. 

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:05:49 +0900
    From: 
          "Sunhyung Kim" 


Steve, I got my own messages and I lauged to read this. It was 3 A.M. this
morning
when I sent this. I can't believe I wrote this. (You must have been
perplexed)

>That's why
>I want to take up the task myself. I'm sure I could do her justice 'cause I
>never read a JCO text without turning every sentence into a Korean
>equivalent and I'm doing this almost unconsciously!

It's like I'm a magician or something. All I wanted to say here is that I'm
dying to do it myself.
I mean at least I would try my best to do her justice. MMM....

Kim



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:58:04 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Kim----

I know your note was to Steve---but why DON'T you be the one to take up the
translating of JCO?  Your own writing style is excellent, and your
understanding of JCO's work seems excellent to me----why not do it yourself?


Best wishes
Ellen H



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:00:25 EST
    From: 
          Ehaggar 


Steve---

How nice to hear someone saying that Miles Kundera is NOT the endall,
literarily speaking---I've read UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING and something
else by him and am utterly bewildered by the fuss people make about him......


Ellen H



Subject: 
            Books in lotsa other tongues
      Date: 
            Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:49:36 +0000
      From: 
            John 


David and anoyone else interested . . . 

Don't know if you all know about Powells Books in Portland Oregon.  Don't know
why I haven't told you all before -- must be the socially imposed shroud of
secrecy of living in the oasis/Eden of Portland.

But I am not duping the rain myth!

Powells is one of the reasons I moved here.  Never saw anything like it. 
Three stories and one whole huge city block -- and that isn't big enough; soon
they are moving to larger facility.  

To our great local demise, within the last year Powells went online.  You
think Amazon.com is a great rescource . . .  hah!

Their website is:  http://www.powells.com

Regarding Garcia Marquez printed in Spanish, they have loads.  I just surfed
the site to check for you.  You can find the titles either by doing a quick
search on the top of the home page -- I put in "Garcia Marquez" and got 194
entries, mixed in all tongues.  The Spanish text are easy to identify: they
are titled in Spanish!

But if you only want to see what they have in Spanish and not all other
tongues, scroll down their home page to 'Browse by Sections', click and then
scroll down the ensuing list to 'Foreign Languages'; then in the list that
follows scroll down to 'Spanish: Literature'.  Unfortunately, the following
list takes some time to download as you are getting every title and author
they have in Spanish, sorted alphabetically; luckily Garcia comes up soon.

Not speaking spanish myself, I couldn't translate the titles, but I saw at
least 15 or 20, and you can order them all online, or call them.  Also, by
clicking on 'details' you can see if they currently have it in stock and what
is the price, publisher, etc.  Hope this helps.  

And hey, to all of you, since I've disclosed this godsend of a book resource,
please leave all the hard to find Dostoevskies to me!

Take care all
John



Subject: 
          Re: Powells
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:58 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hello, could you give me the email address for Powells?  Cyrano.



Subject: 
            Re: need your help
      Date: 
            Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:51:49 +0000
      From: 
            John 

Regarding Kundera, I thought the JOKE was good fun, but stopped there.  In the
film world, we called the UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING the UNBEARABLE LENGTH
OF A FILM.  Just an anecdote.



Subject: 
          Re: Books in lotsa other tongues
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 98 10:45:57
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 

All of Garcia Marquez`s books are readily available in Spanish here, but 
not in English. I rarely buy any of his work, however, although he is one 
of my favorite writers. Since he won the Nobel Prize, his publishers have 
been publishing what are essentially short stories in big print in separate 
volumes and charging more than the price of anyone else`s books.

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:06:30 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Kim:

A followup to my last reply.  I knew that you had mentioned three authors
that you wanted to introduce into Korea aside from JCO, but I could only
remember two of them.  I often have problems with my memory (a lingering
side effect from a difficult time in my life), but in this case I think I
was just supressing something:  The author I forgot was Milan Kundera.  I
have only read "The Unbearable Lightness of Being", but I was very, very
disappointed by it.  I don't have the impression that anything else
Kundera has written was better, but perhaps I'm wrong.  I'd be grateful
for your comments on his work, as I'm eager to be educated out of any
misapprehensions that I have.  "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" struck
me as a superficial work by someone who was trying hard to be profound. 
The philosophical musings suggested that Kundera doesn't know much (or has
failed to comprehend much) about modern physics, in light of which a lot
of what he plays around with sounds childish.  But maybe I'm the one who's
being superficial?  I'm not trying to change your mind about Kundera, but
I'm open to it if you want to change my mind. 

Steve



Subject: 
            Umberto Eco / Stuart Dybek
      Date: 
            Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:16:47 EST
      From: 
            composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)


Kim (& Steve)

Umberto Eco has the potential for mass/international/worldwide appeal. 
Go for it, but unless you are fluent in Italian, work from the English--I
think it is a suitable translation.  Does anyone know if Garcia Marquez's
works are available in his native language (Spanish) here in the United
States??  I speak fluent Spanish and would love to read them in that
language (even though Edith Grossman and a few other translators have
done a fine job).

David C.
Michigan

p.s. -- Anyone here a fan of Stuart Dybek??  He has a story, "Blowing
Shades," in the latest issue of Ray Smith's ONTARIO REVIEW (also JCO's, I
guess).  



Subject: 
            Re: Powells
      Date: 
            Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:34:39 +0000
      From: 
            John 


Cyrano,

Better than e-mail, Powells has an 800 number.  It is:

1 800 291 9676

Or, if you have $$$ to spare, another number is:

503 228 0540 ext 482. 

Regarding e-mail, they have several addresses, none of which really have to do
with ordering books online.  For that, they require you to use what they call
a 'notepad' which must be analogous to Amazon's Shopping cart.

Nevertheless, the e-mail addresses are:

help@powells.com . . . . . regarding your account or order

webmaster@powells.com . . .regarding technical issues (??)

marketing@powells.com . . .regarding marketing/PR info

ideas@powells.com . . . . .the website suggestion box

For ordering books, I highly suggest the 800 number.

Cyrano, are you having trouble with your computer?  Can you not surf the
website?  If so, sorry to hear it.  If not, all this info is there, under
'Information' at the bottom of their home page.

Take care!
John



Subject: 
          Re: Umberto Eco / Stuart Dybek
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:04:43 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 


David--
Regarding GGm's books in spanish --
I know that I purchased Cien Anos and Amor en el Tiempo de Cholera in
spanish at Barnes&Noble. Other than that, there are assorted small foriegn
language bookstores around that I know of -- there is a big one right
around here that might ship - it's called Schoenhoffs.

- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Subject: 
            Re: Powells
      Date: 
            Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:55:01 EST
      From: 
            cambre@juno.com (JOHN CAMBRE)
 

'Used to live in Portland, about 9 blocks away from Powell's. Anyone who
has a chance to visit, do yourself a favor and stop there. As stated, the
store literally occupies a whole city block. Often, my sole Saturday
afternoon entertainment was to hang out there and browse the stacks. And
then maybe a pint of McMenamins ales on the way home. Takes me back, it
does.



Subject: 
            Re: Kundera
      Date: 
            Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:55:01 EST
      From: 
            cambre@juno.com (JOHN CAMBRE)

I find Kundera to be very lucid and convincing. At least in his work up
to and including "Unbearable Lightness". I thought his treatment of the
contrasting yearnings (adventure and voluptuousness versus emotional
comfort) was explored with great subtlety. And I appreciated the
interplay of historical events, which many writers who explore the
emotional and sensual life tend to ignore. That said,  "Immortality" left
me cold, and looking over all of his work, it seemed to me there was a
trend in motion all along: with "Immortality", he seemed to manifest a
deconstructionist approach that he was hinting at in all his works up
until then. Thus the characters in "Immortality", while already shadows
of characters he'd already written earlier, seemed even less substantial
as a result. 



Subject: 
          Re: Birthday Card
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:25:35 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Harvey:

I can understand the desire to preserve a cherished part of your own past
by not changing your view of JCO or of other living writers in light of
their later works.  But isn't that past constantly being remade in any
case?  I don't believe that memories remain frozen in our minds;  rather
they must be reremembered and, inevitably, reinterpreted or else we lose
them (I think this applies even to those memories than remain
unconscious).  Conventionally, I say that one of my earliest memories is
of running along an uneven sidewalk when I was three or so.  But I suspect
that by now what I remember is myself remembering that I remembered that I
remembered that I remembered...In this sense, even our most important
memories become "contaminated".  But if we do take them out and cherish
them, some part of them does remain alive in us.  If you choose to
remember what JCO meant to you in the '70's and '80's, can't there always
be a "Joyce Carol Oates" who means some form of that to you, even if you
know that there is also a "Joyce Carol Oates" who wrote "Foxfire"? 

If a writer is still alive and we find parts of her career that we aren't
receptive to, isn't the fact that we've formed that judgment part of our
image, so doesn't the image change despite our desires?  As long as we
know that a writer is alive and productive, I suppose we have to leave an
allowance for change.  In this sense, perhaps we can only get fully to
grips with writers after they die?  Don't we look differently on Tolstoy
because he wrote "Resurrection" than if he had retired after "Anna
Karenina", whether or not we like his late work, or any of his late views? 
Think how a lot of fans of "The Pickwick Papers" must have responded to
"Bleak House", yet now how can we think of Dickens without taking both
into account?  (I'm not going to get into the issue of changing cultural
interpretations over the generations, much less over the centuries). 

I'd better stop before I boil in my own pretentiousness.

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:53:20 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Kim:

I wasn't perplexed at all.  If you were sleepy when you wrote about being 
sure that you could do JCO justice, perhaps the sleepiness was just 
lowering the mental barriers that normally make you feel the need to hold 
back your confidence and enthusiasm.  Surely a translator who is going to 
produce an adaptive work of art needs to feel much of the same confidence 
that the author of the original work felt;  otherwise, won't diffidence 
and uncertainty lead to a flat translation (or worse)?  And if you've 
translated "A Conneticutt Yankee in King Arthur's Court" and you're 
satisfied with the result, then I'd say that in terms of sheer technical 
ability you're ready for JCO (obviously it's an entirely different 
question as to whether or not you're equally in tune with the styles of 
both authors, but based on your comments I'm willing to trust that you're 
in tune with JCO).  Twain has got to be one of the hardest English 
language authors to translate of the last two centuries (leaving aside 
special cases such as "Finnegan's Wake", which might even qualify as a 
translation of itself to begin with).  Of course, "A Conneticutt Yankee" 
is "easy" Twain, without the difficulties of subtle ideas presented in 
dialect that you find in "Huckleberry Finn", but still I'm impressed that 
you did it.  I translated Moliere's "Bourgeois Gentilhomme" into English 
a long time ago for my own amusement, and the experience has left me with 
the highest respect for first-class translators.

You mentioned wanting to introduce non-English language authors to Korea 
such as Umberto Eco.  Are you fluent in Italian, Japanese, etc., or would 
you work from English translations?  (The way that a novel I read by Jaan 
Kross was translated from Estonian into Finnish into French into English).

I think Korea has a much greater potential to pull out of financial crisis
than most of the Asian countries that have been damaged recently.  If only
the parliamentary opposition will cooperate with "DJ", instead of playing
games, it may happen surprisingly soon (my impression is that the Korean
government has, or potentially can have, a stronger influence on its
economy than the U.S. government can have on the U.S. economy--but perhaps
that's just in illusion created by superficial news reporting).  But in
that case Korean politicians would have proven themselves much more mature
than American politicians are.  I hope it works out that way. 

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:43:05 +0900
    From: 
          "Sunhyung Kim" 


Steve,
I think there was some misunderstanding here. When I mentioned Kundera and
Haruki and Eco, they are not the authors that I want to introduce but the
authors known to everybody in Korea..... :)   They are the three most
best-selling foreign authors in Korea. I wrote:

>I still have this dream to make JCO known to everybody in Korea someday.
>Like Milan Kundera or  Murakami Haruki or Umberto Eco.

I see why you thought so. :)  I'll be more careful next time.

Anyway I don't like Haruki much. But The Norweigian Woods was kind of nice.
It really tells us something of Japan in the sixties. In the case of
Kundera, I enjoyed "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" but I don't think
he's a great artist. But He's certainly a skillful dexterous writer.
Actually I liked "Immortality" better. Well, still, I'm not a great fan of
Kundera.

Kim



Subject: 
          Re: Powells
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:03:28 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, John.  Thanks for the info on Powells.  Yes, I do have a surf problem.  I
use a different computer for research -- not handy to me at the moment.
Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: another bright idea
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 98 12:01:32
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


Cyrano and Steve

I would love to see those novels and collections that Greg mentioned in an 
earlier e-mail published, but I wonder whether its a fair request.

I`m not familiar with criticism of Joyce Carol Oates. I haven`t seen any 
since the early seventies and what I saw then was superficial (by which I 
probably mean that reviewers would often treat a book by JCO as if were 
just another new book and not A BOOK BY JCO) But my own feeling is that JCO 
has never published a flawed novel or a weak novel. (She has published a 
couple of unpleasant novels) Is that because she is so rigorous a critic of 
her own work?

Would the novels that she has set aside help her reputation or hurt it? 
Would she break her winning streak? Often writers who have achieved a level 
of popularity at which they can produce anything and be assured that it 
will be published are tempted to do just that. Certainly, most of the other 
writers who have come up in these discussions don`t have the same 
consistency that Joyce Carol Oates does.

My question, what I wanted to ask Greg a long time ago, is: Is there any 
difference between the published works and the ones in the archive? Is 
there a discernable reason why they weren`t published?

In one of Augusto Monterrosa`s fables (more or less remembered) a monkey 
wrote a book that everyone praised highly. But then he never wrote another. 
One day he met the fox who told him he must write another book because the 
first had been so good. The monkey left, thinking, he insists so much 
because he wants me to write a bad book. And he never wrote another word. 
Not quite the case of JCO of course nor of ourselves. I suspect though that 
she must have valid reasons for her editorial decisions.

I hope to read those books someday but I don`t have the same urgency as 
some of you because I can`t read as fast as Joyce Carol Oates can write.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: another bright idea
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:44:54 EST
    From: 
          RJohn713 

Dear Frank,

As I say in the biography, I found JIGSAW to be a wonderful novel (if perhaps
not as "ambitious" as other Oates novels).  I prefer it, certainly, to some of
the published ones.  I'm afraid it just got lost in what JCO often calls the
"logjam" of the books waiting in line to be published.  However, with three
books forthcoming this year alone--MY HEART LAID BARE, NEW PLAYS, and THE
COLLECTOR OF HEARTS--JCO fans will have no reason to feel deprived.

Greg Johnson



From: Ehaggar 
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:45:36 EST
Subject: Re: need your help


Ivan/John

Hi--I've missed you---where have you been?


Best,
Ellen H



Subject: Re: another bright idea
From: composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:02:14 EST


I believe Ecco Press is bringing out NEW PLAYS, if I'm not mistaken.  I
have not had ready access to any of JCO's series in which MY HEART LAID
BARE is a part of, and am wondering if it will stand on its own as a fine
book.  Is THE COLLECTOR OF HEARTS just a standard, non-genre JCO novel? 
(not that any JCO book is standard).  I assume that Dutton is publishing
the latter two.

JCO may be critical of her work (this is in address to Frank's e-mail)
but I read somewhere, maybe in Greg's intro. on the web site, that JCO
isn't or wasn't big on making major revisions to her stuff once she had
written it.  I wrote a novel once, when I was younger, and pulled it out
of a drawer the other day.  When I wrote it, I remember thinking (like
all writers), "This is great!  Why do writers spend so much time
revising?" and then I re-read this novel that I wrote when I was younger,
and could barely get through the first chapter because it was so lame.  I
took a red pen to it and have come out today with a whole new
product--still, probably something that no one will want to publish, but
I think this says a lot about writers and revision--the longer you let
things sit, the more likely you are to find something to change in it. 
Obviously I would have about 300 times more to change than something that
might come from the pen of JCO, but still, you get my drift.

David C.
Michigan



Subject: 
          Re: another bright idea
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:33:25 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

David:

I've had a similar experience in reviewing old work to yours.  The books 
that JCO publishes show that she stays still less than most writers, so I 
would think that looking at any of her old work, even the best-received 
of the published books, would be at best an ambivalent experience for 
her.

I agree with Frank that I have yet to read a JCO book that I felt was
unsuccessful (of course I've had preferences among them), and I assume
that self-censorship is indeed likely to be part of how she keeps her
published quality high (plus rewriting--has anyone else read the
incredible statistics that Greg quotes at the JCO Archives entry at the
Website?  I assume this information is "Invisible Writer", too).  It
reminds me that Brahms claimed he destroyed three compositions for every
one that he published.  Still, it's encouraging that Greg liked "Jigsaw". 
But, while Greg found a good measure of what he likes about JCO in the
books, and perhaps some or all of the rest of us would find what we like
as well, who's to say that "Jigsaw" contains much of what JCO likes about
JCO? 

I wonder what does please her the most when she rereads herself? 

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: need your help
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:41:42 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

Kim:

You're right, I did misunderstand.  By the way, I want to apologize about 
the tone of my message on Kundera.  I have to do most of my participating 
in the Group during very short periods of free time after getting off of 
work, and I'm afraid that I let too much of my frustration and anger from 
my job (which I detest) show up in the E-mail.  I was disappointed in 
"The Unbearable Lightness of Being", but I could and should have said so 
without sounding hostile as I did.  Do you have an opinion about this 
book?  If so, it would be very interesting to hear what you have to say, 
even if you disagree strongly with me, as I think well of your 
contributions on different subjects.

Steve



Subject: 
          did kelly really die?
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:05:04 EST
    From: 
          Eka1 


while recently reading some criticisms on Black Water, i came across a
decontructionist take on the death of Kelly Kelleher, or rather the survival
of Kelly. To state that Kelly did not die despite the factual basis on the
Chappaquidick case was shocking to me and rather intriguing. as i am already
skeptical of the deconstructionist approach, i was wondering if anyone else
had any experience or ideas on this view

erica



Subject: 
              Re: did kelly really die?
         Date: 
              Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:13:39 +0000
        From: 
              "F. Schwartz" 

I have always been quite sure that kelly died in BLACK WATER. And anyone
who says she didn't missed the point. Writing death in the first/second
person is the the most phenomenal feat of that book. Not to mention
capturing the spiritual incompleteness of the personality involved.

Just my thoughts, gang.

Been sick, too sick to participate in all the chatty posts.

Francie



Subject: 
          Re: did kelly really die?
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:03:41 EST
    From: 
          Eka1 


i completely agree that kelly died. when i read the essay about her not
actually dying it was unsettling, and it really didn't fulfill my thoughts
about the book. i guess the whole point of deconstructionism is to see two
sides of everything, but it, in practice, the theory undermines the purposes
of the author. i just thought the idea was something that should be thought
about even if it is unsatisfactory.

erica



Subject: 
          Re: did kelly really die?
     Date: 
          Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:23:41 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 


Francie, Ellen (HI ELLEN), Erica, etc...

I was completely sure that Kelly died in _Black Water_; in fact, I never
even thought to read it any other way. And I don't think that ending would
have made the book as satisfying for me.
But very interesting idea.
Feel better, Francie.
Take care all,
- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:30:52 -0600
From: Terry Scoggin 
Subject: Re: Arnold Friend's secret code + Black Water opera


Hi, all--

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but being a newbie to the list I was wondering
how much had been discussed earlier about stuff usually bandied about re
"Where Are You Going . . ."  such as:

The Gehenna/Beelzebub Connection:
        All the "flies" references, suggesting that JCO's at least aware        of these
allusions.  Which leads to:  

The Devil Himself:
        The old "if you take out the 'r's       in Arnold Friend's name, you    end up
with 'An Old Fiend'"; nope, dunno why they picked on poor       little "r."  In
some ways, it's similar to using various arcane         formulas to "prove"
numerologically that Hitler, Stalin, or even    Henry Kissinger "equals" 666,
which we all know refers to the         guy who always pushes the DOWN button to
go home.  BTW, when     carried far enough, such numerological gymnastics can
be used to      "prove" anyone to be the devil, antichrist, or probably even
Walter Mitty.  It may also suggest the:

Judges 19:17 Connection:
        No, I'm not trying to imply that anyone who sees an allusion    here is
spouting balderdash.  In fact, the backwards counting to        arrive at the
verse makes the idea all that more intriguing, to       me anyway, with all its
implications of reversals similar to    those used in satanic rituals
(inverted crosses and the like).        But it also seems remarkably like the
overreaching (IMHO, of  course) attempts during the same period the story
was written to  attribute ANY suspicious behavior to demonic activity.

Could JCO be putting us on?  Of course, Connie's getting much more than she
bargained (with whom?) for in Arnold Friend.  By using horrific, even
supernatural, allusions, JCO's suggesting that Connie's experiencing the
worst of all teenage girl nightmares (yes, I think Connie's going to her
death at the story's end).  But that may be the extent of it as far as
JCO's concerned.  Where does evil come from?  We're on our own on that one.

BTW, there's a good interview with JCO on her libretto of BLACK WATER in
the Jan. 3 issue of OPERA NEWS.  The article's called "Going to the Opera .
. . with Joyce Carol Oates."

Randy--
        Many thanks for the page and list!

Greg--
        Ordered your book Tuesday; looking mightily forward to reading it
(whenever it gets to lowly me [!@#$%^&* and all that other stuff relayed by
earlier respondents])!

Best wishes to all,

Terry




Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 14:34:58 
From: "Frank Malgesini" 
Subject: Re: did kelly really die?


I can see room for doubts about Connie, or at least I could until Randy 
enlightened us with Judges, but Kelly is dead.

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



From: Ehaggar 
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:38:11 EST
Subject: Re: did kelly really die?


Hi Everybody

In the one lunch I had with JCO  (with 8 other people, I hasten to add), she
said, "I have NEVER understood why there is any question in anyone's mind
about Connie.  She is going to her death---she is going to die.  I never meant
there to be any ambiguity there."

She also said this in the two lectures I heard her give---there is apparently
a large dim group of people who have read ONLY "Where Are You Going, WHere
Have You Been" and like to ask questions about it.  I certainly agree with
Frank and most of y'all about Kelly's death----aside from the Chappaquidick
parallels (and I know I've mispelled that!!!), the story has no point
otherwise.

By the way, I don't mean to classify anyone who asks questions about Connie
and Arnold as part of a "large dim crowd"-----we have all read plenty of JCO
and are sort of circling back to her better known short stories.  And I myself
teach the story to my freshmen every semester, although I also have sneaked in
FOXFIRE and THEM with great success 

Trying desperately to clarify everything I am babbling about.....

Best wishes as always
Ellen H



Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 14:56:19 
From: "Frank Malgesini" 
Subject: Bibliography


Randy

In the Computer center I was told that our browser is Lynx and there is no 
version. Is this is the information you asked for? I don`t know how to say 
browser in Spanish and I`m not really sure what it is in English either.

(ps. I can only read texts, there is no sound or image through our server)

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          RE: Bibliography
     Date: 
          Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:33:08 -0800
    From: 
          SOUTHERR@ALPHA.USFCA.EDU


Frank,

I was thinking that might be the problem. Lynx, as you indicated,
is a text-only web browser; it is not designed to process images, 
sounds, or anything else including it seems, my online bibliography.

Do you have no access to a computer with Netscape Navigator or
Microsoft Internet Explorer installed? Perhaps at your library if
not at your computer center--this is what you need to use the present
bibliography. 

I'm sorry, Frank, that I can't accommodate you otherwise--I can barely
keep the web site updated as it is; to have to keep generating separate
"print" bibliographies in addition to the online version would be
very time consuming.

Randy



Subject: 
          Robert Hillenga/Milan Kundera/Stuart Dybek
     Date: 
          Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:57:42 -0000
    From: 
          "Gary Couzens" 


Kim (and everyone)
 
I saw a copy of Hillenga's The Sixteen Pleasures in Books Etc, Charing Cross
 Road, London today - the cover quotes come from the New York Times and the
Chicago Tribune. I thought I couldn't remember reading any reviews of it here.
 
Re Milan Kundera I read The Unbearable Lightness of Being after seeing the
 film (which I evidently liked much better than John/Ivan did!). I liked that
 novel, but
had the Emperor's New Clothes feeling with The Book of Laughter and
 Forgetting.
 
Stuart Dybek - he isn't published in the UK (the only book available on
 Bookpages is Brass Knuckles, on import from the University of Pittsburgh).
 However, I'm
nearing the end of the anthology The Year's Best Fantasy & Horror: Ninth
 Annual Collection (ed. Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling, St Martin's Press,
 covering the
year 1995) which contains an excellent Dybek short story reprinted from The
 New Yorker, "Paper Lantern". One of the stories I've yet to read is by JCO,
 with an
unprintable/unpronounceable title.  (It's a horizontal black line in print, but I
 can't reproduce that in email.)
 
Gary Couzens



Subject: 
          Re: did kelly really die?
     Date: 
          Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:32:10 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 

Erica:

JCO has made clear in print as well as in conversation that Kelly dies.  
But, if I'm not misunderstanding, doesn't deconstructionism insist that 
there is no fixed meaning to any text?  Presumably the author's 
intentions would be no more important than anyone else's readings.  
Perhaps, in that case, we could choose to believe not only that Kelly 
lived, but that she was never trapped in the car at all--it was the 
Senator, imagining that he was Kelly.  Well, ya know, why not?  More 
seriously, if anyone in the Group is interested in deconstructionism, 
this would be a good time to help educate those of us who know less (I 
have a certain person in mind, but don't want to put this person too much 
on the spot by mentioning a name).

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: did kelly really die?
     Date: 
          Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:45:13 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 

Hi, when I had lunch with JCO, she said Kelly was dead too -- her suffocation
in the car meant to "mimic" a gas chamber execution.  Looks like we got a
couple of dead girl-characters here.  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: did you really?
     Date: 
          Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:47:25 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, Ellen.  However did you manage to "sneak in" two great tomes the size of
THEM and FOXFIRE?  Cyrano



Subject: 
          RE: Bibliography
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 98 09:06:06
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


Thanks Randy

Actually the computer I use is the one at the library. I guess I`ll just 
have to wait for the coming century on the bibliography.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx

Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:49:22 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 


I had a wonderful experience reading "Where are you Going, Where Have you
Been?" last night -- I think it was my 3rd time working through the text
and this time I was really struck by what a powerful piece of writing it
is...
And I think the first few times I read it, I missed the dedication to Bob
Dylan.
Wonderful.

- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Subject: 
          Exegesis or One more kick at a poor dead horse
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 98 15:54:32
    From: 
          "Frank Malgesini" 


I haven`t participated in the Where Are You Going discussion before and 
when I read the story I just assumed that Connie was going to be killed. 
But there seemed to be a variety of opinion in the discussion that occurred 
here a couple of months ago and I thought that some of the other 
interpretations were plausible (which is not the same as likely)  Arnold 
Friend does make some pretty direct statements in the story, among others 
one that echoes the title saying something to the effect that where you 
were is gone and where you were going is cancelled, and another that echoes 
Dylan saying its all over for you. 

I want to comment on the citation of Judges 19:17 that Randy provided. I 
think this verse makes the intention of the story clear -Oates`own 
oft-stated intention according to several messages we`ve received over the 
past year- and provides us with a context as well.

I`m willing to accept that both interpretations of the numbers on the car 
are plausible and even that both may have been intended by the author. But 
it doesn`t seem believable to me that the text from Judges text could have 
been mere coincidence. It does include the title of the story after all. 
And although the situation is obviously not identical, there is a 
similarity between the the story of the woman in Judges and that of Connie. 
The woman does leave the house with evil men to protect her family although 
not necessarily of her own volition.

I disagree with the idea that either explanation of the numbers would have 
occurred to Connie and Connie does not in fact seem to react to them 
although AF watches to see what her reaction will be. I doubt that either 
she or any of the rest of us would have time or concentration to puzzle out 
a meaning for his secret code under the circumstances.

I strongly disagree with the premise that AF would be unfamiliar with the 
Bible or that he would be unlikely to use it to encode a message. I 
wouldn`t expect him to encode The Book of Common Prayer or the Harper`s 
Index, but the Bible yes. His language shows him to be ignorant but there 
is nothing to indicate he doesn`t come from poor fundamentalist background. 
What else could he use as a frame other than the Bible or pop songs?

For me the verse from the Bible is interesting because it helps make the 
story clear and because it provides a context from which to view it. The 69 
explanation bothered me for two reasons. First, I can`t see why he would 
have broken the number down into those three smaller numbers and I can`t 
see what the point of those three numbers was. I mean, 33 and 17 and 19. 
Why those? It`s a little too esoteric for me. And, I almost suspect, for AF 
too. Secondly, I don`t get much help from the older explanation. I can`t 
see that 69 tells me anything useful about Arnold Friend or about the 
story. Which leaves me wondering why she mentions the numbers at all. He 
does say something I believe about them being a secret code. Considering 
what he talks about, is 69 worth being secret?

And the Biblical allusion fits in with Oates` practice. I actually think 
JCO worries over and illustrates the Bible quite a bit in her work. When I 
was thinking of writing my masters thesis about Bellefleur and Buendia I 
bought a Biblical Dictionary just to help me understand Bellefleur. I was 
having trouble with Mahalaleel when I found out that the word was a name 
from the Bible meaning "praise of God". Mahalaleel still baffles me but I 
began to notice that the preponderance of proper names in the book are 
Biblical references. And so the dictionary -which, at least for Bellefleur, 
was very useful. I see the Bible as one of the frameworks for the book.

Not the basic framework, of course, which I see as something quite 
different. Actually it`s wonderful how our minds can make a complete system 
out of any framework however irrelevant to explain any work of literature. 
The discussion of JCO and the Simpsons earlier this year demonstrated that. 
Does anyone remember when Paul MacCartney was dead, the deluge of frantic 
calls on the radio programs providing new evidence. None of it very 
convincing but altogether an an amusing if not believable theory.

When I was writing my thesis I came across a book published in the Twaynes 
Authors` Series that explained Hombres de Maiz by Miguel Angel Asturias 
through an analysis of the Kabbala and other European esoteric studies that 
Asturias had encountered in France as a young man.  It was a fairly 
thorough explanation and I might have believed some of it if it weren`t 
that Hombres de Maiz is so direct a rewriting of the Mayan sacred texts, 
the Popul Vul and the Chilam Balam. The interesting thing for me was that 
the author, who appeared not to be aware of the Mayan mythology that is 
basic to the work of Asturias, could develop the Kabbala and the esoteric 
cults into a completely adequate framework for interpreting the book. And 
here we have the number 69 and Judges 19: 17, two entirely different and 
entirely adequate devices for interpreting the passage in the story.

Since I`ve gotten so far away from Arnold Friend anyway, I want comment on 
something that I`ve fantasized once or twice reading my e-mails. I 
sometimes feel we treat the works of Joyce Carol Oates a little like the 
Bible here. This accounts for the fact that the discussion so frequently 
deals with life more than simply literature. We are looking in her books 
not for literary structures but for truth. Sometimes we seem to be doing 
Biblical exegesis but on Oates (a difficult task since her work is such a 
big sprawling Bible. How much easier life was for the monks of Liebowitz.) 
I`m not criticizing the practice, just noting it. I think this message is 
getting too wierd so I`ll stop now.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject: 
          Re: "Where are you going ...
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:10:23 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 


Hi, Jen.  It's funny, but when the story was printed in the anthology of the
same name, that dedication was removed.  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: "Where are you going ...
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:44:20 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 


Cyrano,
Really? That is strange...
That might be why I had never seen the dedication before.
- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Subject: 
          Re: Exegesis or One more kick at a poor dead horse
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:48:08 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 


Frank-


> Since I`ve gotten so far away from Arnold Friend anyway, I want comment on 
> something that I`ve fantasized once or twice reading my e-mails. I 
> sometimes feel we treat the works of Joyce Carol Oates a little like the 
> Bible here. This accounts for the fact that the discussion so frequently 
> deals with life more than simply literature. We are looking in her books 
> not for literary structures but for truth. Sometimes we seem to be doing 
> Biblical exegesis but on Oates (a difficult task since her work is such a 
> big sprawling Bible. How much easier life was for the monks of Liebowitz.) 
> I`m not criticizing the practice, just noting it. I think this message is 
> getting too wierd so I`ll stop now.

I thought this was really poignant. That is what good art allows us to do
- it allows us to help find the truth that we seek, the clarity that we
yearn for in our own lives. Through those writers/artists that we admire,
we find a kind of vision that helps us expand our lens and ultimately
might help us find truth.

- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Subject: 
          Re: Exegesis or One more kick at a poor dead horse
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:20:55 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Frank and Jen:

JCO has never struck me as an "art for art's sake" writer.  While she 
doesn't try to set up and advocate an absolute system for life (could the 
good judgment which prevents her from doing that be one of the reasons 
she is so much better a writer than Ayn Rand?), I believe she pretty 
clearly is, among other things, a reforming writer.  This, along with her 
overwhelming energy and love for the grotesque, is one way in which she 
reminds me of Dickens.  I suspect she would be disappointed if we didn't 
find any of her writings applicable to "real life".

Steve



Subject: 
          Re: Exegesis or One more kick at a poor dead horse
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:49:03 -0500 (EST)
    From: 
          Jennifer Nash 

Im not arguing that she's "art for art's sake" either. I'm saying that her
writing is art and that we, as her readers, find something truthful and
ultimately life-changing (and life-affirming?) in it.

- jen

"there is only a spiritual world; what we call the physical world is the
evil in the spiritual one, and what we call evil is only a necessary
moment in our endless development."

- kafka



Subject: 
          Re: "Where are you going ...
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:17:50 EST
    From: 
          Shmoopak 

That's really horrifying - to remove the dedication to Bob Dylan is like
removing part of the narrative.  The totally NON-Dylan-esque Music - that is,
the cheesy bubble gum pop so beloved by Connie et al - played such a central
role in the in the story, that it was practially a character.  Indeed,
Connie's entire vision of love is encompassed in this sweet make believe world
of non-threatening be-bop that equates love with something "cute" and easily
accessible, not to mention highly marketable by shock jocks such as "Bobby
King" and his "XYZ Sunday Jamboree [filled with] hard fast shrieking songs
that [Connie] sang along with."  It's what Arnold Friend uses to "connect" and
ultimatey trap Connie with: "[Arnold] lifted his friend's arm and showed
[Connie] the little transisiter the boy was holding, and now Connie began to
hear the music.  It was the same program that was playing inside the house."  
At the local hang out, it is this same music that seduces all adolescents into
believing that the world really IS like what you see on MTV:  "They sat at the
counter and crossed their legs (there's your legs again, Cyrano) at the
ankles, their thin shoulders rigid with excitement and listened to the music
that made everything so good:  the music was always in the background like
music at a church service, it was something to depend on."  
And God forbid the fun-rock stops -- it's just like in the movies where all of
a sudden it's quiet .... too quiet.  Without the music, the world is suddenly
frightening, cold and ominous:  "Connie coudn't help but look at the darkened
shopping plaza with its big empty parking lot and its signs that were faded
and ghostly now, and over at the drive-in restaurant where cars were still
circling tirelessly.  She couldn't hear the music at this distance."  I think
the danger in this type of music as far as the story is concerned is that it
lulls vulnerable adolescents like Connie into believing that love is always
cute and cuddly and fun.  When Connie dreams of the various boys she's met
during these outings with friends, their faces "all fell back and dissolved
into a single face that was not even a face, but an idea, a feeling, mixed up
with the urgent insistent pounding of the music and the humid night air of
July."  JCO intimates that this seemingly harmless type of rock is actually
quite dangerous.  Again, it acts as a narcotic - it convinces the Connies of
the world that they are invincible; that if they go into the back seat of a
strange boy's car, they will be A-OK, because the fun-rock bands of the time
(perhaps the early 70's equivalent of today's Spice Girls) say don't be afraid
of fun-love, and don't even worry about sex because that's not what these fun
love is about.  So girls like Connie don't think about being raped, kidnapped
and murdered by these faceless nameless boys.  Instead, they ignore such vile
thoughts by tapping their toes to a happy beat.  It's no big surprise then,
that when Connie is confronted by a monster like Arnold, she shuts down.  She
understands that he is dangerous, but she is unprepared and yes, betrayed by
the music that she has relied so heavily on.  
I guess that is what makes the dedication to Bob Dylan so important, in that
it highlights the huge differences between Dylan's music and the music which
pervades the story;  it really is the perfect and very necessary backdrop to
start what is truly a magnificent tale.



Subject: 
          Re: Exegesis or One more kick at a poor dead horse
     Date: 
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:29:03 -0600
    From: 
          tjscoggin@ns.pan-tex.net (Terry Scoggin)


Frank--

Enjoyed your sf (Miller) reference.  How tongue in cheek WERE you being?
>
>Sometimes we seem to be doing 
>Biblical exegesis but on Oates (a difficult task since her work is such a 
>big sprawling Bible. How much easier life was for the monks of Liebowitz.) 
>I`m not criticizing the practice, just noting it. 
>
Best to all,
Terry Scoggin



Subject: 
            Re: "Where are you going ...
      Date: 
            Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:18:25 EST
      From: 
            composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)

In the most recent collection with this title (like 1992 or something), I
believe the dedication is on.  For sure it is on in the Elaine Showalter
book about the story.

David C.
Michigan



Subject: 
          Re: "Where are you going ...
     Date: 
          Sat, 14 Mar 1998 17:07:53 EST
    From: 
          Cyranomish 

I don't have that anthology any more -- WHERE ARE YOU GOING ... etc.  Could
somebody who has it check to see if that's the version of the story where the
Dylan dedication is missing?  It's the anthology that contains the previously
uncollected story "Silky"  ("Silkie?")  Cyrano



Subject: 
          Re: Exegesis or One more kick at a poor dead horse
     Date: 
          Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:53:03 -0800 (PST)
    From: 
          joyce l merritt 


Terry and Frank:

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one in the group with an interest 
in SF.  I hope that Tone Clusters is as well-meaning, but not as bounded 
in its interests as the community of St. Leibowitz.  By the way, has 
anyone else noticed that C.J. Cherryh reproduces (at a less artistically 
accomplished but still interesting level) some of the characteristics of 
JCO, including being unusually prolific?

Steve



Subject: 
              Re: did kelly really die?
         Date: 
              Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:55:15 -0800
        From: 
              Randy Souther 

Erica,

What was the article you read that suggested Kelly survived?

Randy

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Last updated 3-14-97
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