Subject:   Winterthurn Again
Date:  Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:54:47 -0800 (PST)
From:   joyce l merritt jlm29260@email.csun.edu

I had a sort of inspiration last night while doing laundry, and now
believe that in "The Bloodstained Bridal Gown" Xavier is being linked to
Freud.  This fits in a variety of ways, including the items that I
mentioned when I compared Xavier to Sherlock Holmes (shades of "The Seven
Percent Solution"!), but also in such ways as the self-proclaimed searcher
for truth who cannot separate his life from his work, who scandalizes
"right-thinking" people, who means to expose hypocrisy but who can be
hypocritical and self-deluding, etc.  I didnt pick up on it at first, but
Xavier's hounding of Ellery Poindexter is certainly a case of
transference, too.  And the chronology works:  Georgina dies at around the
same time that Dickinson died;  Valentine goes on trial at around the same
time that Wilde went on trial;  and Xavier becomes a criminal at around
the time that Freud committed the crime (moral if not legal) of
pyschoanalyzing his daughter Anna (I don't know whether or not JCO
believes that Sigmund Freud's mistreatment of Anna Freud went beyond what
has been documented directly, but what has been documented directly was
bad enough).  The Simon Esdras-Wittgenstein link does not fit
chronologically, Simon Esdras dying when Wittgenstein was still a child,
but the single-volume edition of Simon Esdras' treatises with foreward by
Bertrand Russell appears only a decade or so ahead of the publication of
the "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus" with foreward by Bertrand Russell and
(if I remember right) not too far from the time of Wittgenstein's trip to
Norway.  But why is JCO doing this?  I can rationalize it, but on a gut
level I don't feel that I know.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this? 

What I do feel on a gut level is that "Mysteries of Winterthurn" is a 
much greater achievement than I would have guessed from the little bit 
that I've read "about" JCO.  Here, even more than usual, it seems that 
JCO is being undervalued by the critical establishment.

Steve     



Subject: Re: No Subject
 Date:  Sun, 08 Feb 98 17:41:46 EST
 From:   Mark SUtton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU

_Haunted_ was my first Oates, too, and I think its supposed to be confusing.
To take "Poor Bibi" for example, it could be about a dog, but something in
that story (I'm working from memory here) made me think it could've been a
child, and the parents were demented.  I got the same feeling from "The
Premonition," which I think is a bloody revenge story that we as readers don't
fully experience because the point of view character won't accept that fact.

Mark

P.S. to Randy:  Congratulations on the dedication;  you do deserve it.  When is
_My Heart Laid Bare_ coming out (or has it already?  I'm knee deep in last
semester Master's student stuff, so I don't get out much).   



Subject:  Re: Poor Bibi
Date:  Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:00:07 EST
From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, I think the humor/horror of "Poor Bibi" is that JCO blurrs the picture of
who Bibi actually is.  I started out thinking of Bibi as a dog.  Then it
seemed more likely that Bibi was a human being the narrator treats like a dog
-- which would explain the vet's outraged  reaction when Bibi appears on his
treatment table.  Bibi -- if human -- would seem to be either the couple's
child or some other weak, disenfranchised person who had the bad luck to fall
into their custody.  The effect is definitely surreal.  I'd put it in the
category with the story "Family" in HEAT and "Thanksgiving" in HAUNTED or
"Ladies and Gentlemen" in HEAT.  All these seem to be set in some dsytopia in
the not-so-distant-future in which the surface amenities of civilization have
died off leaving only a very savage "family" system in which one individual is
easily replaced with another person and nobody worries  very much about it.
That whole theme of personal identity goes way back to the beginning of JCO's
work.  What is it that distinguishes one person from another person -- or in
Bibi's case, from an animal. 
     By the way, those interested in the patient/therapist issue in MAN CRAZY
will be interested to know that the very first Rosamund Smith novel -- LIVES
OF THE TWINS --has a heroine named Molly who -- as the novel begins -- has
just moved in with her latest boyfriend, who is none other than her ex-shrink.
Cyrano  



Subject:  Re: i need wisdom and guidance
Date:  Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:03:03 EST
 From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Erica.  What do you consider to be the feminist themes in BLACK WATER?
Cyrano



Subject:  Re: Gothic Series
Date:  Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:14:45 EST
From:  Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Greg.  I was sorry to hear of the demise of LUCIEN FLOREY.  I remember
reading "Corinne"  in the mid-1970s.  It excited me because its heroine seemed
a lot more intelligent and interesting than any JCO heroines I'd read up to
that point.  Also, it was set in California, which was something new for her.
When I interviewed JCO in 1984, I asked in an aside what plans she had for
LUCIEN FLOREY.  She replied that it was in the drawer of the desk where she
works, but she wasn't yet sure what would happen with it.  Wish it hadn't bit
the dust, but I suppose the character Corinne got recycled in other fictions.
ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE I LEFT BEHIND -- from the same era -- resembles it the
most as far as I can tell.  Cyrano



Subject:  Re: Women as decoys for other women, "Man Crazy," Therapists
Date:  Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:26:47 EST
From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Steve.  I like your theory that the entire text of MAN CRAZY might be
Ingrid's strategy to manipulate her therapist into being the "daddy" she
thinks she needs.  Ingrid is a very strong-willed person in her own peculiar
way -- like those damaged trees in the closing image, determindedly growing
toward the light.  That scene in which she describes the bloody death of Enoch
is suspicious in the absolute glee she takes imagining the way he was blown to
pieces.  As a manipulator, she resembles Maureen in THEM, who very shrewdy
plays upon a married teacher's fears and sympathies to railroad him into
dumping his family and marrying poor little-ole her.  Cyrano



Subject:  inspiration
Date:  Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:05:16 -0500 (EST)
From:  diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)

        Steve's message on Winterthurn reminded me of an "inspiration" of
mine concerning one of JCO's short stories in the Will You Always Love
Me collection. (Since I know virtually nothing about literature, I usually
read JCO a little mindlessly - I never "get" the stories but enjoy the
language, the atmosphere, and the psychological elements.) 
There's a story in that collection about a high-school suicide being
remembered long afterward by the woman who was the ostensible object of
affection of the young man who committed suicide. 
It occurred to me that this was JCO updating
the famous story "The Dead" by James Joyce in a modern context. (Gulp!,
I never read the story, just saw the movie). There's a scene under the
woman/girl's window that cannot be just coincidence and the rest of
the situation fits in well, namely a long-ago death, adolescent romantic 
yearnings,etc. Of course, this being the
modern world, the boy was struggling with homosexuality, and the woman
had forgotten the episode and gotten on with her life, which was quite a
successful one. Being reminded of the suicide and filled in with the "true"
story by a classmate, the woman finds it interesting (no more) and 
everyone moves on. The only thing is, I'm not sure if JCO is being serious
(how in the real world we get on with our lives and how these things in fact
fade away with time) or ironic (see how in the modern world we brush all this
off and sensibly get on with our "careers". (Wherever the word "career" 
appears on a JCO story it's always ironic - the character involved is
never protected by his/her career no matter how stable/successful, and those
merely hoping to establish a career for themselves are invariably doomed -
so I always think of the word in quotes.))

        Whether this is all baloney or not, thanks to the group for
making me think about JCO's works in ways I hadn't tried before.

Harvey Diamond



Subject:  Re: inspiration
Date:  Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:05:13 EST
From:  Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Harvey.  There's nothing "mindless" about any of the comments you've made
in this group.  "Life After High School" I hadn't connected with Joyce's "The
Dead," although I see what you mean.  What's missing, of course, is the
woman's sorrow over the dead boy in her past.  (Angelica Houston communicated
that so well in the film -- Will we ever forget her standing in the stairwell
listing to the old song from her youth?)  JCO did a very conscious
"reimagining" of "The Dead" in a story also entitled "The Dead" in her
late-1970s collection MARRIAGES & INFIDELITIES.  In that one, the career women
-- a college teacher --who is "enjoying" the same kind of fame JCO did after
THEM won the National Book Award -- keeps herself drugged up on various over-
the-counter medications and learns that the boy who loved her in the past was
killed in a Kent State-type campus incident.  I had to read "Life After High
School" twice before I realized how sad the distraught boy was.  The last line
of the story: "What do you suppose Zachery planned to do with the
clothesline?" is very cold.  But let's not forget that it was Z's suicide that
changed the speaker: lead her to give up her Christianity.  Or perhaps her
adult hardness was just part of the inevitable growing-up process.
     Yes, JCO does seem to have a skeptical attitude toward careers -- or
toward people who try to achieve a career.  Her high-level professionals seem
no safer from the unpleasantness of life than do her small-town losers.   I
first noted this in her mid-1960's story "Archways" from UPON THE SWEEPING
FLOOD.  Here's how a male college teacher describes his students at a
community college: "he was to them a transparent obstacle ... something
between them and their "careers" as if these ghosts were real, actually
existed somewhere and had only to be located."  Cyrano



Subject:   Re: inspiration
Date:   Mon, 9 Feb 98 14:47:11
From:   "Frank Malgesini" 


Cyrano and Harvey

I thought that the suicide was an extremely crucial incident Sunny`s life. 

It killed the entire personality that she had been building up since grade 
school and changed her into someone entirely different. 

Wasn`t leaving town to some extent an escape from that event and her 
subsequent life an evasion of it?

The final comment seemed to me to be sudden relaxation. Sunny has spent her 
life in a sense bearing the burden of the suicide alone, compensating for 
it, punishing herself for it. When she learns the parallel story from her 
classmate, she has someone that she can share those burdens with. So she 
can talk to him about something she`s never wanted to discuss with anybody. 
She sounds like a high school student gossiping about something exciting 
or shocking that`s happened with that final question.

It has been awhile since I read the story and so I may be remembering 
things wrong but I think of her as being released from her solemn guilt and 
being allowed to show curiosity by the confession of the classmate.

Frank

Frank Malgesini 
fmalgesi@uach.mx
Facultad de Filosofia y Letras
Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua



Subject:  Re: inspiration
Date:  Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:49:57 EST
From:  Ehaggar@aol.com

Cyrano---

I agree with you about how tough JCO  is on those who are successful
professionally.  Nowhere is that portrayed so well as in AMERICAN APPETITES,
one of my favorite JCO novels, whose characters are all ludicrous, self-
centered, loveless though lustful, and heartily loathed by the "regular"
people of the town.  There is not one truly sympathetic character in the whole
novel, and, as you say, none of them seem to be protected from the
vicissitudes of life.  This is also seen in the character of Terence Greene in
the latest Rosamund Smith novel DOUBLE DELIGHT.

By the way, it is my understanding that although JCO dedicated AM AP "To All
My Princeton Friends--Nowhere to be found in these pages"  that the book set
up quite a guessing game in her profoundly successful community.  I was in a
writing seminar one summer with one of her colleagues who felt that HE had
been caricatured in a particularly cruel way in the book.  Hard to know if
these things are true, but it is an interesting idea.

Also, why would a woman as tremendously successful professionally as JCO be so
hard on other professionals?

Ellen Haggar



Subject:  Congratulations
Date:  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:44:52 +0900
 From:   "Sunhyung Kim" 

(I'm late...but still I'd like to say)
 
Congratulations, Randy! 
 
I sincerely believe you deserve it. You assured me that
the net isn't really an enemy of literature. :)
I'm sort of a newcomer on the net and I've been surfing 
the net for book informations, and I found out 
there's no site like yours. Your site is not superficial at all
like most of the "homepages" that eventually disappointed me,  
but always in-depth and thought-provoking, which shows 
how much energy and efforts you've poured on this site. 
"Celestial Timepiece" is a truly great dedication 
to a truly great wrtier of our time.  
 
I also want to add my "thank you" for keeping
this great discussion group. I'm so happy to be able 
to read all the brilliant insights everyday. 
You made my life, which is tens of thousands of miles away, 
much fuller. Ain't the net a cool thing!  
 
Kim 
from Korea 



Subject:  Re: inspiration
Date:   Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:01:50 -0800 (PST)
From:   joyce l merritt 

Ellen and Cyrano:

I agree with your comments about JCO and careers (and specifically about
"American Appetites", one of my favorites, too).  Could this be a
reflection of her working class background?  A number of people who I've
been close to from similar backgrounds have expressed the opinion that
being educated and having a career are likely to make you a good person in
a moral sense (a view that seems to coexist perfectly well with resentment
of and even contempt for educated people with "careers").  If JCO and her
peers while she was growing up had been taught this sort of thing, perhaps
it would have made a strong impression on JCO when she found out that it's
not true, the sort of revelation that lingers. 

Steve


 
Subject:   Re: Poor Bibi
Date:   Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:09:32 -0800 (PST)
From:  joyce l merritt 

Cyrano:

I haven't read "Poor Bibi", but your comments somehow "sound right" to me
anyway;  also, they remind me of a curious experience:  when my sister and
I were teenagers, she once came into my room and began to read to me from
a book on how to take care of your baby.  The tone seemed silly and
stupid, but otherwise the book appeared to be normal enough for its
subject until it reached the part about brushing your baby's coat and
giving it a flea collar.  Of course, my sister had been substituting
"baby" for "dog" in the original text.  There are a lot of comments around
about people treating their pets like babies, but I think our expectations
of how to treat babies are not always as far away from how we treat dogs
as I could wish.  I don't think it would take much of a breakdown in
things for a lot of real people, not presently classed as disfunctional,
to treat their babies as "Poor Bibi" seems to have been treated. 

Steve



Subject:  Re: Tone Clusters
Date:  Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:19:02 -0800 (PST)
From:   joyce l merritt 

Randy:

I like the sound of "Tone Clusters" independent of its meaning (now what 
would Henry Cowell say to that?  Speaking of which, I suppose "Tone 
Clusters" is a good name for a group founded during Cowell's centenary 
year by someone in the Bay Area).  As for the JCO reference, hmmm...I 
hope we can do better than the Gulicks, but this medium does impose some 
similarities.

Steve



Subject:  Re: inspiration
 Date:   Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:06:14 -0500 (EST)
From:  Jennifer Nash 

american appetites is my all time favorite jco...
i havent read it in a while and i left it at home when i moved up to
school but as i remember what i was most struck by was jco's depiction of
gender roles and the desire of the characters in the novel (i dont
remember their names) to fit into society's prescribed gender roles. im a
little rusty on this novel...its been a while.

- jen

"...these hands-the hands that care, the hands that mold; the hands that
touch the lips, the lips that speak the words-the words that tell us we
are whole..."

- douglas coupland



Subject:  Re: career people are messed up too
Date:  Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:21:41 EST
 From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Ellen. Yes, DOUBLE DELIGHT is another great example of the downside-of-
professionalism theme.  That was an interesting antecdote about JCO's use of
neighbors and/or colleagues in her fiction.  Perhaps she's not so much down on
them as she is simply using the material that is closest to hand.  And of
course she herself is a professional/career woman.  I've always thought her
most excoriating insights come from her own life.  Sometimes, when she's being
most sardonic, it may be she's poking fun at her own foibles.  That's just my
guess, however.  I hasten to add that when I met her in Harvard Square several
years ago to interview her about BLACK WATER, I had a battle with my own self-
conscious fears that I might turn up as a faintly ridiculous character in some
forthcoming piece of fiction.  If I did, she disguised me so well that it went
right over my head.  Cyrano



Subject:  Re: Winterthurn
Date:  Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:22:19 EST
 From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

[Warning: plot spoilers!]


WINTERTHURN is a handful.  I knew Perdita killed her husband and mother-in-law
in the last story, but I was recently shocked to read a convincing article
that pointed out Xavier (rhymes with "savior") was her accomplice.  I'd
constructed a whole different theory about  the identity of the mysterious man
seen running away from Perdita's  house.  I don't know a thing about
Wittgenstein (sp?) or his philosophy, but I used THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV as a
parallel; Xavier resembled Ivan, the unconscious murderer, so it adds up -- I
guess.  It's an engrossing puzzle.  Cyrano



Subject:   Re: FOXFIRE, MAN CRAZY SERIES
 Date:  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:24 EST
 From:     May31955@aol.com


:: I agree A. Wright.  Families do tend to replicate . . . 

My personal un-psychological (aka layman) view is that we learn our personal
definitions and expections of LOVE in childhood, in the 'love' patterns and
dynamics of our families.  

Then, as no one is perfect, whatever strengths and weaknesses of that initial
pattern of LOVE is sought in adult intimate relations.  Something I think JCO
is onto.

Unfortunately the deficiences seem to weigh more in our personalities.  It is
the wanting vs. having thing.  We care more about what we lack than what he
have.

It is my feeling that we try to 'repair' and overcome these deficiencies in
adulthood.  Seeking relationships that replicate those old love patterns, and
in some cases (not all) seeking to 'fix' them.  It marks a personal victory. 
Might even be part of individuation.

Just a thought.

Ivan 

Ivan, What you said strikes a tender spot--i am currently living in a Dom/sub
relationship (i am the slave) & i know for a fact i am trying to replicate an
incestuous relationship i grew up in.  That relationship was Dom/sub to the
highest degree except for the one basic Dom/sub dynamic--consensuality.  The
power my adoptive father had over me, the attention he paid to me can never
really be duplicated, but i am coming as close to it as i can.  I find such a
strange joy in being submissive to my Master.  He is actually too good.  i
find myself wishing he were meaner to me.  In fact i often beg him to hurt me.
Sometimes he accomodates me and sometimes he does not.  i left a loving
relationship with my husband of 20 years to come here and live as this man's
slave.  Well, more than you probably care to know ... 



Subject:  Re: career people are messed up too
Date:   Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:32:39 -0500 (EST)
From:   diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)

Cyranomish,

        Thanks for your comments on Life After High School and on careers.
Oates' writing is all about the fragility of one's place in the world,
and she has no patience at all with the word "career", which suggests
a warm calculated stability, and characters who believe in that word are
in for a comeuppance - they may survive, but they are forever
changed. It takes exactly one page for this to happen in the story Naked,
for instance. 

        From the other direction, "career" is a cruel hoax dangled
by "society" in front of most of the population, designed to promote good
behavior and the stability sought by those with the "real" careers. 
Characters from the "wrong side of the tracks" who seek careers are either
deluded or arrive wounded at what is supposed to be success.

        In either case, Oates fairly spits the word out with contempt in
her stories.   

        By the way, did anyone see Oates' TV interview on Charlie Rose
when Mulvaney's came out? What did you think? To me, she seemed a bit
uncomfortable and reticent. Charlie kept trying to do his Charlie thing,
but JCO wouldn't buy it, answering his questions with brief, quiet, reasonable
answers. 

Harvey Diamond



Subject:   re: Winterthurn
Date:  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:43:19 -0800
From:   Randy Souther 


Cyrano, my friend, I can't believe you just did that! Never reveal the
murderer of a mystery novel (even if it was obvious to you) without
alerting people beforehand so that they can avoid the information if
they haven't read the book. ;)

What was the article you referred to positing Xavier as the man running
away from the Rectory? I don't think I would buy that theory, but I'd
like to see the argument.

You're right on with Dostoevsky--there are all sorts of parallels. The
family structure of the Glen Mawr Kilgarvans parallels the family
structure of the Karamazovs, and the Bloodstained Bridal Gown murders
have elements not unlike the murders in Crime and Punishment (right down
to the ax and the surprise witness who is then killed as well).

Steve, I hadn't thought of Wittgenstein and Wilde, but it sounds about
right (as far as I can judge on my limited knowledge of those two). As
for Freud and the pattern you're looking for, I think you may be pushing
it too far. I'll be interested in your discoveries on the second
reading.

Randy



Subject:   Poor Bibi from "Haunted"
Date:   Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:07:11 -0800
From:     composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)


I just re-read the story "Poor Bibi" last night (and also found new joy
in the HAUNTED collection).  It is a rather morbid story, but kind of
interesting nonetheless.  It is as if the dog (I assume Bibi was a dog)
was possessed with some demoniac or supernatural spirits.  So, when the
vet. went to look at the dog, he appeared fine, but when the owners
viewed him, he needed to be put down.  That also works on another
level--how the owners view the dog, maybe they were just sick of him and
decided to have it put down.  Since the vet. wouldn't do it they
considered it their duty to do what society wouldn't do.  It was a
thought-provoking tale.  So different than most things you read by other
authors.

David C. 
Michigan



Subject:  Congratulations
Date:    Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:40:10 -0000
 From:   "Gary Couzens" 

Belated congratulations to Randy from me as well. I found this website and
 discussion group the logical way (via an Altavista search). It's the definition
 of how a specialist

website should be designed. It's good to hear intelligent debate from like-

minded people. I sometimes wonder if I'm the the only person in Britain to
 read JCO, let alone the

twenty novels that I have read. Sometimes I'm a bit out of synch - as I've said
 before, none of her novels since WHAT I LIVED FOR have been published over
 here, so

discussions of the likes of MAN CRAZY are tantalising to say the least! 

 
Oh well, at least Waterstone's Bookshop, Charing Cross Road, London has a
 well-stocked section of American imports. I'll look there next time I'm in
 London. Either that

or order her books over the Internet...
 
Gary Couzens
(Aldershot, Hampshire, England)



Subject:  Re: career people are messed up too
 Date:  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:05:26 EST
 From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Harvey.  I've never heard the "career" issue put so well.  There is a kind
of hubris in the whole concept, isn't there?  And we all know where that gets
you in JCO's world.  I wish I'd seen the tv interview.  I'm not acquainted
with Mr. Rose's show, but I can imagine 
JCO wouldn't be lead.  (Here's a fun fantasy: JCO on Letterman, in that first
talk spot, which I refer to as "the bimbo slot."  Even men look like bimbos
beneath that Letterman leer -- unless they're Travolta.)  When her play "Cry
Me a River" was produced in Harvard Square last year, I had a phone interview
with the producer.  There was a LONG pause when I asked him what she was like
to work with.  After some hemming & hawing, he said that she has a mind like a
steel trap and absolutely NOTHING gets by her.  
     Randy: Ooops!  Got a little tired there and forgot my manners.  I will be
more circumspect about plots from now on.  If there's any way to alter my
comment in the archieves to get rid of that revelation, you have my permission
to  nuke the crucial words, Cyrano



Subject:   Re: British JCO fans
 Date:   Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:13:40 EST
From:  Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Gary.  I'm so surprised to hear JCO books are scarce there.  I'd thought
the country was full of fans.  I remember when the TLS reviewed DO WITH ME
WHAT YOU WILL, the reviewer panned it bad --- then got the end of the book
WRONG in his synopsis of the plot.  The following week's letter column
contained a thorough scolding from a London-based Jesuit, who concluded that
it's hard to care for the opinion of a reviewer who obviously hasn't finished
reading the novel.  Those of you who have read DWMWYW may recall that you have
to read right down to the final  paragraph to find out what happens to the
hero.  Cyrano



Subject:   re: Winterthurn
Date:  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:48:12 -0800 (PST)
From:  joyce l merritt 


Randy:

There was more to back up my Freud link in "Winterthurn" than what I 
mentioned in my E-mail, but I'll save further comments about that and the 
chronology until I've finished rereading the book.  Despite the "give 
away" aspects of Cyrano's message, I was very interested to read it, 
because I felt that the information added to my understanding without 
contradicting the parts I already had figured out.  But, as I don't think 
I'll be able to say much about my theories without discussing things that 
people who haven't read "Winterthurn" may not want to know ahead of time, 
perhaps I should E-mail you and Cyrano directly on this when I'm ready?  
(And Sue, if you did go ahead and read "Winterthurn", I'd be very 
interested to hear what you have to say about it.)

Steve



Subject:   Re: Winterthurn
Date:  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:15:27 -0800
 From:    Randy Souther 


Steve,

I certainly don't want to hamstring the discussion of Winterthurn or any
other book; please discuss any aspect you want, but if you're going to
talk about something that would in some sense "ruin" the experience of a
first time reader, then just begin your message with a note that you
will be revealing plot elements that might spoil a surprise for those
who haven't read the book. I have looked in on the wildly popular
Stephen King newsgroup a couple of times--apparently the term "Spoilers"
or "spoilers included" in the subject of the message is standard net
etiquette to warn people away who don't want to hear crucial plot
elements discussed.

And let me know more about your Freud theory when you're ready.

Randy



Subject:      Douglas Coupland
Date:    Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:34:31 EST
From:     composer2@juno.com (D. C. C.)

Jen--

Knowing you were such a D. Coupland fan and reading your posts about him,
I couldn't help myself when in Barnes & Noble last Friday I picked up
Microserfs for $5.00 and Shampoo Planet for, get this, $1.99 (both cloth
cover).  They look very intriguing.  Having just visited Redmond and the
whole Microsoft campus last November, I will be interested to see how
this Canadian has portrayed it (is he from east or west Canada?) in
Microserfs.  Anyway, just thought I'd let you know that I am giving
Coupland a chance.  Also, when is his Girlfriend in a Coma coming out?

David C.
Michigan



Subject:   Re: Douglas Coupland
 Date:   Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:02:22 -0500 (EST)
From:   Jennifer Nash 

GIAC is coming out 4/1/98...
some advanced copies will be available since he is going on a short tour
before then.
enjoy!

- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:  Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:   Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:43:06 -0500 (EST)
 From:    Jennifer Nash 

David-
He is from Vancouver - he was born in W. Germany but spent most of his
life in Vancouver. Microserfs is a fascinating book - many argue that its
his best although I think Life After God is. Anyway, let me know what you
think.

- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:  Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:40:36 EST
From:   Cyranomish@aol.com
 

Hi, I just got a copy of GIRLFRIEND IN A COMA.  Do you remember the little
line drawings in LIFE AFTER GOD?  They remind me of the ones in JCO's ZOMBIE.
Cyrano



Subject:  Re: Winterthurn & spoilers
Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:48:26 EST
From:  Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Randy.  "Spoilers" is a good shorthand for excess plot info.  I'll use it
henceforth -- on the subject line and in my text.  No, I can't remember where
I read the article about Xavier's part at the Rectory.  I thought I'd seen it
on your page, but then you would know. 
If the theory panned out, it would correspond with the BROTHERS KARAMAZOV
parallel, Ivan (not you, John) and Smerdyakov being subconscious allies.
Cyrano



Subject:   Re: FOXFIRE, MAN CRAZY SERIES
Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:52:41 EST
From:  Cyranomish@aol.com

Hi, Ivan.  Where did that appendix to your yesterday's message come from --
the testimony from the "slave?"  Cyrano



Subject:    Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:11:25 -0500 (EST)
From:   Jennifer Nash 

WHOA!
Cyrano - is GIAC out today??!?!!? I thought it wasnt coming out until 4/1.
clue me in.....
im dying

- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:   Winterthurn
Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:09:52 -0500 (EST)
From:   Karen Gaffney 

hi everyone. i just wanted to comment on the Winterthurn discussion. 

cyrano, you mentioned an article you read about xavier's role in 
the crimes, an interpretation which i tend to agree with. anyway, randy 
asked you where you read the article and since you didn't remember, i 
thought i'd jump into the discussion to suggest that the article may be 
one by Cara Chell in the journal Arizona Quarterly. she wrote an article 
titled "Un-Tricking the Eye: Joyce Carol Oates and the Feminist Ghost 
Story" published in the spring 1985 issue.

this article may not be the one you're referring to, but either way it's 
a fascinating article about Winterthurn and the implications of the 
crimes committed. it helped me when i wrote about this novel.

i hope this is useful.

and randy, by the way, congrats on the dedication!

:) karen gaffney



Subject: Re: MY HEART LAID BARE dedication
 Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:04:19 EST
 From:   Shmoopak@aol.com


CONGRATULATIONS RANDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it couldn't go to a more deserving person.

sue



Subject:   Re: Women as decoys for other women, "Man Crazy," Therapists
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:19:56 EST
 From:    Shmoopak@aol.com


Cyrano and Steve:

I'd like to elaborate on the themes of Them and Man Crazy (and maybe some
other stories) because I do see a lot of similarities.  Although Maureen and
Ingrid might be seen as manipulators, I am also intrigued by how much they
themselves were manipulated by their environments.  To put it in really
simplistic terms:  Perhaps these women are "fated" to have bad relationships
with men, because of the environments they grew up in.  One telling clue is
the similarity of the mothers (the natural person to blame every psychosis
on).  The mothers in Them and Man Crazy are very similar.  In fact, this
"mother prototype" is found in many of JCO's works - Not only in Them and Man
Crazy, but Do With Me What You Will, Because It's Bitter and Because It's My
Heart, and Expensive People.  In all of these novels, there is a very
beautiful woman who chooses to to love herself more than she loves her
children.  She abandons them, either literally, or emotionally, which then
causes feelings of self-loathing in the child.  The similarities in character
development and plotline are pretty interesting:

Expensive People has Nada, Richard's mother, who is "really beautiful...her
hair burnished and burning with excitement, her eyes like jewels, everything
lean, smooth, lovely...She is thirty but looks twenty-five, twenty, eighteen!
Any age!"  She is a brilliant writer, but there is something psychologically
wrong with her.  As Elwood her husband puts it, "your mother is unstable...we
want to understand her sickness and forgive her and make her well."  She
leaves her son and husband, and her son warns her that if she leaves "again,"
she doesn't have to bother coming back.  Richard is a self described "child
murderer" meaning he committed murder as a child.

Because it's Bitter:  Persia Courtney, Iris's mother, has "an uncanny
power...to light up her face at will -- shining eyes, seemingly radiant
smile--forehead smooth and unlined as if she were still nineteen years old,
all adult strife...yet to come not even imagined...Persia beneath the lights,
is perfect."  Persia abandons Iris through alcoholism, and Iris notes this
very matter of factly in her journal:  "May 18.  Mother was taken to Hammond
General Hostpital today by ambulance."  Iris marries a professor's son, Alan.
However, it is not Alan she loves, but the professor himself "I don't love
your son but I love you...I don't love Alan Savage but I love...Savages." As
if to prove her point, Iris is then indeed attacked by "savages" at the end of
the novel, and is left with a very fragile tenuous hold on sanity.

Do With Me What You Will:  Ardis Carter, Elena's mother, has a "bright
beautiful" face, and "red lips parting over her white teeth into a smile...Her
red hair had been softened, lightened, to a pale and almost iridescent orange,
a tawny orange that changed hues in different lights."  Ardis is also a very
intelligent woman in the sense that she is shrewd and has no qualms about
clawing her way to the top.  Even moreso she is greedy.  Therefore, she
abandons her daughter by "selling" her to Marvin Howe the rich and famous
lawyer (one of the most horrifying yet delightful scenes is Ardis's
negotiations with Marvin Howe regarding the prenups:  children, vacation time,
everything is up for grabs!  Really brutal stuff!).  At the end of this novel,
Elena leaves Marvin Howe in pursuit of her "true love" a married man who has a
child.

Them:  Loretta Wendall, Maureen's mother is first introduced at the young age
of 16:  "her face was rather full... and there was a mischevious puffiness
about her cheeks that made her look younger than she was...her waist was
surprisingly narrow...upon her competent shoulders sat this fluttery, dreamy
head, blond hair puffed out and falikng down in coquettish curls...and men
stopped to stare at her."  Loretta is very intelligent and ambitious, but she
is unable to escape slum life and can only aspire to lead as "normal" a life
as possible.  She abandons Maureen through neglect, eventually leaving Maureen
to take care of the drunk second (third?) lover/husband.  After struggling to
escape this household, the quiet, intelligent, good-girl Maureen turns to
prostitution to make money and get the hell out of there.  Maureen gets beaten
up by a father-figure, goes into a catatonic state of some kind, gains much
weight, and then eventually comes out of it to attain "normalcy" once again.
She then seduces her English Professor away from his wife and children and
conceives a child of her own with him.

And of course, there is Man Crazy.  I can't be as specific here because I read
the whole thing in one sitting at Barnes and Noble and haven't bought the book
yet but here is what I remember:

Ingrid's mother is the "grace kelley" of trailer trash. She makes her living
by working in a clothing boutique, and sponging off men.  She abandons Ingrid
through neglect.  Ingrid joins a satanic cult and eventually marries her
therapist (a bad relationship as we have all discussed).

I find the mother character fascinating because she could provide a key to the
psychology behind these women and their "bad relationships."  Moreover, the
mothers are quite fully developed characters (as opposed to the fathers in
these and other stories - perhaps with the exception of Zombie where the
father is more fully developed than the mother), so I imagine they are quite
significant figures in these (and other) stories.

Looking forward to hearing what you think.  Thanks!
Sue



Subject:  Re: FOXFIRE, MAN CRAZY SERIES
 Date:   Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:19:24 EST
From:   Ehaggar@aol.com

Er, Ivan---

As someone who does a little literary/personal confessing myself I''m with
you, but I need to get this straight--you are a woman who has left her husband
of 20 yrs to become involved in an S/M relationship?  Or you are a gay guy
named Ivan or John who is using "husband" as a convenient word and is involved
in an etc, etc.------or did someone get to your wordprocessor and is screwing
around with you and us?

Whatever your sex, sexual practices, and/or practical jokes, I do enjoy your
comments!

Ellen Haggar



Subject:  Re: Douglas Coupland
 Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:21:08 EST
 From:  Ehaggar@aol.com


Jen, Cyrano, All Doug Coupland fans----

Things move a little slowly in the south---is your DC the guy who wrote
GENERATION X?  I hope so, because I thought that was splendid and it seems
I've got some good reading ahead of me if that's true....


Ellen Haggar



Subject:   Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:09:07 -0500 (EST)
From:    Jennifer Nash 


Ellen,
That's my beloved DC!
He also wrote Shampoo Planet, Life After God, Microserfs, and Polaroids
>From The Dead.
Enjoy,
- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:  Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:   Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:11:13 EST
From:   Ehaggar@aol.com

Jen--

Thanks for the info---I am delighted about SC!!  Someone at the English Dept
where I work handed me GENERATION X and said, "You will hate this piece of
shit" and I LOVED it, as I said--thanks for the book list!

Hugs
Ellen Haggar



Subject:  Re: Douglas Coupland
 Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:42:06 -0500 (EST)
From:  Jennifer Nash 


Ellen
I think a lot of people consider him anti-intellectual or something. But I
think he's pretty amazing.

- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:   Re: Women as decoys for other women, "Man Crazy," Therapists
 Date:   Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:42:07 -0800 (PST)
From:    joyce l merritt 


Sue:

Very valuable comments about the mothers and daughters.  I didn't mean to
suggest that Ingrid manipulated more than she was manipulated against;  if
my remarks came across that way, then I'm glad you corrected them. 
Rather, because to a great extent "Man Crazy" depicts so relentlessly how
Ingrid is manipulated and abused, I was pointing out (I think actually
elaborating on an observation by Anthony) that Ingrid does try to
manipulate, too. As Cyrano said, it's a sign of life in her.  But
certainly you're right about Ingrid and the others being "condemned" to
lives of abuse.  If your circumstances are bad enough, the odds are that
you won't escape them. 

I've read some of the books you cite, but not others.  In the cases of
Persia and Chloe, the mothers I've read about, I would not say that they
love only themselves.  I would say that, because they also seem to have
come from overwhelmingly abusive environments, they don't and can't love
themselves;  nor can they love their daughters (they have no idea of how
it's done, never having experienced it or seen it up close, and there's
little spirit of nurturing in them because nurturing needs to be nurtured. 
Each action by Persia or Chloe towards Iris or Ingrid that does have even
a bit of love or nurturing in it is a wonder, and a source of great
credit.  Yet I'm certain JCO intends the irony that intermittent,
unreliable love may be harder for a child to live with than continuous
neglect).  The mothers focus their attempts at love on abusive men as a
continuation of what they learned to do as children.  The daughters learn
a similar lesson, and act similarly (though with their own personal and
generational spins on it) as they grow up.  To call the mothers the
sources of the psychosis lets the abusive men off the hook (though I think
you were speaking ironically ironically about the idea).  The culture that
permits men to be abusive, and even tries to force them to be, and the men
who go along with it, are most at fault (though at least some of these men
also were born into circumstances where it was unlikely that they would
turn out any other way.  But JCO has depicted abusive men in so many
situations that I don't think she's willing to allow bad environment as
anything like a blanket excuse). 

I think you're on to something, though, bringing up the fact that these
mothers are described as beautiful.  As we all know all too well, both men
and women are taught that the most important source of value in a woman is
physical beauty.  These women have this asset and cultivate it, yet all it
gets them is the attention of abusive men.  Of course, they are surrounded
by men who have been taught that the appropriate way to treat women is to
hurt them, so when such men respond to the way that the mothers advertise
their beauty (intending to advertise their quality), the men inevitably
show their appreciation through abuse.  The women hope, romantically, for
someone to share their lives with.  The men respond by trying, after their
fashion, to do just that, but the men's lives are so full of violence and
hate (qualities abundant in their environment, but also qualities they've
been taught to seek out), and so unlikely to bring them any long-term
satisfaction, that of course the men are maddened by the experience (JCO
may have meant it that the reverse of "Man Crazy" is "Crazy Man", a
repeated them in her books).  And one of the other things they've learned
is that it's safe to take things out on women (including by abandoning
them;  but the fact that the abandonment is punititive and not due to lack
of interest shows in the way that the men keep reappearing.  In their own
fashion, they're still sharing their lives with "their" women).  So the
women get abused even more. 

Well, this went on a lot longer than I expected.  Hope it wasn't a waste 
of time to read.

Steve



Subject:   Re: Douglas Coupland
 Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:57:51 EST
From:   Ehaggar@aol.com

Jen---

I think that Coupland is terrific---I loved all the concepts he drew and
labelled--especially the McJobs---I've held those LOL!!

Ellen Haggar



Subject:  Re: Women as decoys for other women, "Man Crazy," Therapists
Date:   Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:03:54 EST
From:   Ehaggar@aol.com

Steve, Sue, everybody----

One of the things I liked the most about MAN CRAZY was its evolution (sort of)
of the manipulated/manipulative woman-----in the horrifying short story
"Testament" a plain girl lures the more beautiful one to destruction at the
hands of her (the plain girl's) psychotic boyfriend.  She says several
times--"She was prettier than me but not for long."  On the other hand, in the
Lost Kittens segment of MC, Ingrid even at her lowest point resists the
command to lure another woman to her death....I agree that the beauty of women
or lack thereof is a major issue in JCO's novels....it would be interesting,
though intrusive, to know what JCO thinks of her OWN looks, and how they
helped or hindered her as a teenager and very young woman....

Ellen Haggar



Subject:  Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:  Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:59:20 -0500 (EST)
From:  Jennifer Nash 

Ellen-
Awesome! You should definitely check out Life After God....

- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:  Re: Women as decoys for other women, "Man Crazy," Therapists
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:15:19 EST
 From:   Cyranomish@aol.com

And let's not forget FIRST LOVE --whose heroine also rebelliously refuses to
lure a new victim home to her master.   Cyrano



Subject:  Re: Beauty, self-love, self-hatred
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:30:29 EST
 From:    Cyranomish@aol.com


Steve.  I harkened to your remarks on unreliable love being more destructive
than neglect.   That's an important point in MAN CRAZY, I think. 
      Regarding the beauty=self-esteem issue: there's a great story in the
collection WHERE IS HERE entitled "Shot."  A young girl is confronted by an
older woman -- a stranger -- who drives her away with the worst curse you
could say to a girl: "You know what?  You're not even pretty."  Then she
follows with a statement which the author puts in italic: "You'll have to make
your way somehow else."  Bad as that verbal attack is, I think there's some
hope in the final, italicized statement: firstly , that there IS another way;
secondly, that the girl has the ability to find it.  In that story,
furthermore, the beautiful woman's life looks like such a disaster that one
might conclude that beauty is no way at all.  Cyrano   



Subject:  Re: Legs, legs, legs!
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:49:24 EST
 From:  Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Sue.  Yes, that attractive, overbearing mother is a constant in JCO's
work.  Don't forget the mother in FIRST LOVE, who is quite intelligent &
ironic as well as all the other qualities you mention.  One of my favorite
early stories is "The Daughter" in THE GODDESS AND OTHER WOMEN.  The mother in
that one is a very exciting person -- one of the first strong women I'd read
in JCO.  She's involved with several men; her quiet, bookish daughter goes
over to her ex-stepfather's house one night for some kind of comfort -- more
affection, than sexual -- and Mother shows up and angrily breaks up their
conversation.  I always remember that mother's appearance at the end of the
story as she leads her daughter away from the ex-stepfather's house.   "She
could see the firm muscles in her legs tense and disappear as she walked,
assert themselves and vanish smoothly into the sleek line of her legs."
(There's another notable thing about the mother's appearance, but I'll leave
that to you to discover, since it's the story's key.)
     I think legs are very important in JCO's work.  I can think of many
instances when a stong pair of legs are cited with approval.  Let's not forget
Legs in FOXFIRE.  Who can think of other leg images?  I'm sure there are
dozens.  Someone asked what JCO thinks of her own appearance.  I would guess
that she takes pride in her legs -- as a means of locomotion, not necessary as
a cheesecake  feature.  Cyrano



Subject:   Re: Winterthurn
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:53:46 EST
From:   Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Karen.  Thanks for the reference on the Arizona Quarterly article.  It
sounds fascinating.  I'm going to look for it.  Perhaps I'd seen it reprinted
somewhere.  If I can trace my reference down, I'll let y'all know.  Cyrano



Subject:   Re: Douglas Coupland
 Date:   Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:57:09 EST
 From:   Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Jen.  I got the review copy last week, as I'm covering it for a newspaper.
I'm buried alive under other assignments and haven't peeked at it yet.  Will
let you know.  Cyrano



Subject:   Re: Douglas Coupland
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:51:57 -0500 (EST)
From:    Jennifer Nash 

CYRANO -
I AM SO JEALOUS.
PLEASE...let me know.

- jen

"my eyes had seen that conjectural and secret object whose name men usurp
but which no man has gazed on: the inconceivable universe."

- borges



Subject:  Re: Women as decoys for other women, "Man Crazy," Therapists
 Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:55:13 EST
From:   Shmoopak@aol.com


Steve, Cyrano, Ellen et al!
What valuable insight into JCO's mothers!  I do find this topic fascinating,
and I really appreciate your input.

It's very interesting that these mothers are beautiful, and although they
could have any man they want (at least according to MTV and VH1 and Fashion TV
etc.), they tend to end up with abusive hateful men.  Are these beautiful
mom's fated to have abusive relationships with men (as are their daughters?)
Is it because these women are beautiful and even intelligent, that the men
just tend to become abusive?  In Expensive People, Elwood seems to be
"whipped" for lack of a better word in many ways.  Yet this is his way he gets
what he wants out of his beautiful wife Nada:  "'Tasha in front of everybody?'
Father cried.  His cigar slanted down.  His mouth was a fat thick line...it
too showed how dismayed he felt though--and this is the paradox--this was just
what he had wanted."

Is there something about a beautiful intelligent woman that makes men want to
take advantage of her?  That make them want to violate/overcome her?  This
violence seems clearer in the relationships the daughters have with the men in
their lives.  Here's a confusing question: Is having a beautiful intelligent
or in any case domineering mother who has men falling all over her something
that will affect a daughter's relationship with men?  Is there something in
that daughter that will "provoke" men into abusing that daughter?  Again, I'm
sorry to keep bringing these books up but the similarities again are
interesting:

Do With Me What You Will:  The first time Jack sees Elena he describes her as,
"dressed in a way he beleived to be worldly, elegant, expensive, the kind of
appearance he HATED." (emphasis supplied:))  And later when Jack is speaking
to one of his clients, he thinks, "I'd like to take a hold of her by the back
of the neck...Not this woman but the other...the other woman whose face was
like something flashed on a screen."  And then there's Elena's own self-
hatred, projected onto a beautiful dead woman:  "I was that woman found dead,
strangled...twenty-eight years old, auburn hair and blue eyes and ex-model
found strangled and alone...when you read about it you thought:  she deserved
to die.  they all deserve to die.  You might have stranged me yourself but you
had no chance, but someone else did the strangling, and when you read about it
in the paper you had to admit that I deserved to die.  They all deserve to
die."  In sum, Jack, for some reason wants to hurt Elena.  And Elena, the
beautiful daughter of a beautiful, neglectful (or better yet, as Steve puts
it, and intermittent and unreliable) mother wants to be hurt by this man.  She
likes that she provokes him to such hatred:  "Elena hesitated.  She was
becoming afraid of her lover, and yet, in a way, she wanted to provoke him
further.  The sharp, sweet, flame-like rush of fury had touched her, was
coursing into her."

In Them, there is the same situation of a beautiful domineering mother, whose
daughter (Maureen) becomes a prostitute and then eventually seduces a married
man.  But as far as a man's reaction to a beautiful woman is concerned, a
better focus might be on Jules, the son.  Jules falls in love with Nadine the
moment he sees her:  "Jules could not stop thinking of her...He remembered
something curious and pentrating about her look...and a turning inward of the
foot...and her slender pale-pink knees (A-HAH Cyrano, another reference to
LEGS!)...She was someone's daughter, unassailable."  Jules wants to hurt
Nadine, "He felt as if he were going to explode and the violence would kill
Nadine...There was terror in this white bathroom..One's veins might be opened
here, drained away by dawn.  Should he kill Nadine and then himself, to fix
their love properly?"  And Nadine's self-loathing: "You're thinking that I'm a
pig?  For all of this?  A pig, a slut?"

In Them, Jinx kills Little Red Garlock, and thinks "If that white girl wasn't
living, wouldn't anybody know" and later Jinx contemplates, "her bones, her
skeleton, so delicate: so breakable...And her throat, which he can close his
fingers around so easily...he's in dread of that intimacy between them...it's
a situation in which lovers have sometimes drifted off asleep together and
died together, heavy headed from carbon monoxide poisoning." And finally,
there is Iris's self-loathing and desire to die.  Although Iris can't be
blamed for being attacked at the end, it is almost as if she welcomes it:
"Not to [anyone] will Iris Courtney make any attempt to explain why...what
logic, what purpose, walking alone at night...a part of her mind not numbed
with fatigue but brightly alert, even hopeful..."

In Where are you going, where have you been, Connie pretty much hits the nail
on the head as far as mother daughter relationships are concerned:  "Her
sister June was 24 and still lived at home...she was so plain and chunky and
steady that Connie had to hear her praised all the time by her mother...If
June's name was mentioned her mother's tone was approving, and if Connie's
name was mentioned it was disapproving...Connie thought that her mother
preferred her to June because she was prettier, but the two of them kept up a
pretense of exasperation...sometimes...they were almost friends, but something
would come up...and their faces went hard with contempt."  Does this
relationship with her mother make Connie even more vulnerable to someone like
Arnold Friend?  He "hones" in on her the first time he sees her, saying,
"gonna get you baby."  When Connie walks to her death, she is no longer in
control of what her body is doing.  She too, seems fated to a terrible end, as
she watches "herself push the door slowly open as if she were safe back
somewhere...watching this body and this head of long hair moving out into the
sunlight where Arnold Friend waited."

I guess there's a lot here, and maybe I'm spinning my wheels, but I guess the
issues I'd like to focus on are as follows:  Obviously, there are many reasons
why the heroines in JCO's novels meet up with miserable men.  For example, it
might be the simple fact that the men themselves are miserable.  But is there
something about the woman herself who attracts these loathesome kinds of men?
And is it possible that these men are somewhat normal everyday guys, but the
minute they encounter someone like Elena or Iris, or Maureen, they are
PROVOKED (what a nasty word) into wanting to abuse this woman (what a nasty
thesis)?  Does something about these women seduce and repel men at the same
time?  If yes, is ONE of the things that make these women so "provocative" the
fact that they have a domineering, beautiful, unreliable mother who herself
grew up in an abusive household?

Looking forward to your responses.

Sue



Subject:   Re: Beauty, self-love, self-hatred
 Date:   Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:17:38 EST
From:   cambre@juno.com (john cambre)


Nothing specifically comes to mind, but I seem to remember the theme of
beauty and appearance surfaces indirectly in some of the stories in the
"Heat" collection. Oates seems surgically adept at realizing her
characters through their many self-doubts.



Subject:  Re: The Beautiful & the Damned
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:08:06 EST
From:    Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Sue.  Dostoevsky said it: "Beauty is a puzzle."  Interesting excerpts you
give us here.  Two things about THEM: Loretta is pretty, not beautiful.  In
the first pages we see that hers is a massed-produced prettiness -- she is
aware of that and loves the fact that there are hundreds of girls who look
just like her.  In the scene where Jules confronts Nadine on a Grosse Point
sidewalk while he's driving the florist's van -- he gets rather pushy &
menacing with her -- note a background detail: "Behind [Nadine], out of a
fuzzy, technicolor background, a woman appeared in a beige suit, with strong
hiking legs.  Jules backed toward his truck.  He didn't want anyone screaming
or calling the police."  Who is this stong-legged woman who interrupts Jules's
Arnold-Friend like spell over Nadine?  Whenever I read a novel, I like to
guess where the author might be making a cameo appearance.  Later, I sometimes
discover --  via author interviews -- that I was right.  If I were writing a
novel I'd sure do a walk-on once in a while.  JCO notes that she and her
parents appear in a cameo near the beginning of WONDERLAND.  What fun!  Cyrano



Subject:  Re: The Beautiful & the Damned
 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:08:57 -0800 (PST)
From:   joyce l merritt 

Sue, Cyrano, Ellen and Everyone:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that JCO played basketball in high
school.  If she was good at it (and I don't doubt that by will power, if
not talent, she was), the experience must have been not only fun but
liberating and empowering.  And legs are crucial to basketball. 

One leg image that comes to mind is Perdita in "Winterthurn"  (WARNING: 
SKIP THIS SENTENCE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ ABOUT A LATE EVENT IN
"WINTERTHURN") putting on bloomers rather than a dress and cycling to
claim Xavier.  I think that in "Winterthurn" and much more in "A
Bloodsmoor Romance", the issue of skirts, petticoats, corsets, etc.
rendering the legs almost useless and constricting the rest of the body is
a constant negative compared to the positive leg images we've quoted. 

JCO presents so many images of men (of many backgrounds and apparent
levels of being "civilized") perpetrating violence on women and girls of
all sorts of appearance that it seems that she believes that a very large
number, if not most or all, men are prone to expressing themselves towards
women by violence.  A beautiful woman who inspired especially strong
feelings in such men presumably would get more than her share of the
violent expressions.  The two questions that come to mind are 1) the old
one we've been considering of why certain women try so hard to get this
kind of "love"/violence? and 2) does JCO believe that extreme expressions
of violence are innate and unavoidable in the vast majority of men (I'm
sure she's too subtle to use "all"  literally in such a situation), or
does she believe that whatever innate tendencies exist would show up much
less if the culture encouraged them less (for she certainly describes men
being egged on to violence by expectations and rewards)?  Does she believe
that, if a culture includes men, it will encourage violence? 

Steve



Subject:  Re: The Beautiful & the Damned
 Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:45:12 EST
From:    Ehaggar@aol.com

Steve,

I like your point that JCO shows women of all kinds of appearance being
treated violently by men. It seems to me that she does indeed feel that most
men are capable of violence toward women (though, as you indicate, she is too
canny to indicate ALL).  She does, I think, make a distinction between
beautiful women who necessarily attract more attention from men---and still
put up with this kind of violence----and unattractive women who accept the
violence because it is better than no attention at all..

To me one of the most terrifying images of male/female violence in JCO's books
is not any of the rape or murder scenes, but the scene in MARYA: A LIFE when
the teenage boys hold down the teenage Marya and cut off her long beautiful
hair...

Ellen Haggar



Subject:   Re: The Beautiful & the Damned
Date:  Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:15:15 -0500
 From:    "Anthony" 


I'm mostly reading the group and haven't read so much of JCO's work as
others.  There's a dexterity with language in her work that I appreciate
very much, and a sublety which I myself do not possess in my affairs.
Most people would agree with the interpretation above regarding the subtle
and sometimes outrageous violence of men toward women.  I wonder if someone
has read a particular short story from the collection called: Where are you
Going, Where have you been?   The short story is called:  Did you ever slip
on Red Blood?

If anyone has read it, I wonder if they'd care to comment on it within the
context of the relationship that Ellen mentions.  It's a very strange story,
I think, with the suggestion that the only female character is attracted to
and is titillated by violence.


the other anthony



Subject:   Re: FOXFIRE, MAN CRAZY SERIES
Date:  Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:07:34 +0000
 From:    John 

Ehaggar@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Er, Ivan---
> 
> As someone who does a little literary/personal confessing myself I''m with
> you, but I need to get this straight--you are a woman who has left her husband
> of 20 yrs to become involved in an S/M relationship?  Or you are a gay guy
> named Ivan or John who is using "husband" as a convenient word and is involved
> in an etc, etc.------or did someone get to your wordprocessor and is screwing
> around with you and us?
> 
> Whatever your sex, sexual practices, and/or practical jokes, I do enjoy your
> comments!
> 
> Ellen Haggar


Ellen (and Cyrano),

Actually, Ellen, I'm both.  

Beats the heck out of me where that came from, and I'm a little perturbed that
it has taken me so long to 'defend'(?) myself?  (Damn work, damn careeer.)  Oh well.

Ivan and John
(both are married men -- not that there's anything wrong with that!)



Subject:  A rebuttle?
 Date:  Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:56:27 +0000
From:  John 

Somehow, when it is said that perhaps ALL men are prone to abuse or violence
towards women . . . well . . . 

It seems so banal that I hate to say it:  physical attractiveness is a power,
yes, a lure, a means to be desired, but it also a quick route to objectifying.
 Objectifying --> object . . . objects are owned, not shared; perhaps these
men you are discussing would prefer to own, not share.  Is not ownership is
dominance and control over the possesion?  

Beauty lures and inspires urge to have = the theme of advertising.  Female
beauty -- is this a woman's quickest route to attention?  But what attention
does it invite?  Does beauty have a will?  Or does a woman's will interfere
with notions of her beauty in men's minds?

Stripped of means to intimacy and sharing (by a lack of exposure in
abusive/dysfunctional home environments), is the two sides of objectification
all we have left to create relationships with?

Perhaps for a male perspective on the conundrum I suugest Dostoevsky's ETERNAL
HUSBAND.  

SPOILER:  A widowed, unattractive man is left with a daughter which he can't
be sure is his, and in fact thinks he knows whose it is.

Take care all
John



Subject:  Re: Violence
 Date:   Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:11:50 EST
From:   Cyranomish@aol.com


Hi, Steve.  Thanks for that bit of legwork. (Ouch!)  Yes, the scene of Perdita
on a bicycle at the end of WINTERTHURN is rather amusing -- I believe it
indicates some progress in women's fashions & lifestyles.  Legs and
empowerment.  
      Are all men violent?  I've always found in JCO's works support for my
own belief that all people contain the germs of violence.  Some direct it
outward; others inward.  Cyrano



Subject:   Names
 Date:   Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:54:03 -0800 (PST)
 From:    Anthony Risser 


---Anthony  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ...the other anthony....
> 
> 

You have tenure as the original "anthony" here. I'll post with my last
name included to avoid any confusion.

:)

-Anthony H. Risser
ahris@yahoo.com



Subject:   Re: Names
Date:  Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:54:57 -0500
 From:    "Anthony" 

Tenure?....moi?  Tnx for msg.  I think it was someone else mixing us up--it
only happened once and, as I remember, it was no earth shattering event.
Take care.

Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 2-16-98
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