From:  ken_y@primenet.com
Date:  Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:49:29 -0700
To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject: Re: We Were the Mulvaneys

>Granted, Mulvaneys is not JCO's best book, but it's not bad!  It's much
>better than MAN CRAZY.  Look at a lot of the trash that is being
>published nowadays, and you'll see that wow!  We Were the Mulvaneys is
>great...
>
>David

...Mulvaneys better than Man Crazy?   Longer, perhaps.  Fatter, perhaps.

But I could sleep after reading ...Mulvaneys.

     ---==>Ken



Date:  Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:58:20 -0500 (EST)
 From:Heather L Ormiston hormisto@mission.mvnc.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: We Were the Mulvaneys

        I think that one of the reasons that the Mulvaneys fall apart is
because Marianne was their precious jewel, and after the rape they can no
longer see her that way. I tend to look at literature from a
historical stance, so I think that the way rape was viewed in the fifties
has a lot to do with why the family falls apart. In that time, all rape
victims were made to look guilty, and in the case of date rape, which
didn't exist in most people's minds, the feeling would be even stronger. I
think that there is a shame that they cannot get past that eventually
tears them apart. 
        As for their spirituality, I think that Oates views it as a
hinderance to them because Patrick is the kind of hero, and he looks at
the world from a completely scientific point of view. I haven't read the
book for about a year, so I could be forgetting some stuff, but that's how
I remember it. I really loved the book although I couldn't really put down
an exact reason why. I loved Patrick's character though. All girls should
have a brother like him.
heather



Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 17:33:50 -0600
 From:  "Nancy Hunter"nhunter@fsc.follett.com
To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re[2]: We Were the Mulvaneys

     I also loved the book. It was another one of JCO's books that left me 
     breathless. She completely knocked the wind out of me. When I was 
     finished, once again I had to take a break from her writing, and dwell 
     on all that happened to the Mulvaney's. I am sure I will have to read 
     it many times before (if) I can shake the troubled emotions "We Were 
     The Mulvaneys" left with me. 
     I just finished "Do with me what you will". This also left me 
     unsettled, but I am beginning to expect that of JCO. I did feel it was 
     a little strange that "Do with me.." had a happy (in a twisted way) 
     ending. I'm sure after I have read this one 5 or 6 times, I will 
     understand it better. I guess I really did not understand the point of 
     this novel. Would someone care to enlighten me?
     Nancy



From:pes@redwing.on.ca
Date:   Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:31:29 -0500 (EST)
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  your health

I just wanted to write and tell you about a very interesting product I came across last month.

      [MESSAGE DELETED BY JCO LIST OWNER]

Yours truly,

James Whelan 
e mail: pes@redwing.on.ca




From:  Cyranomish@aol.com
 Date:  Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:36:56 -0500 (EST)
 To: jco@lovelace.usfca.edu
Subject:  junkmail

Randy, I don't know much about the mechanics of sending and blocking email,
but is there any way to block product pitches like the one James Whelan just
put up on the screen today?  I cringe at the thought of more ads appearing on
this heretofore excellent discussion page.  Or is that just the nature of the
net-beast?  Cyrano



Date:   Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:44:29 -0800
 From:   Randy Souther Randy Souther
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: your health


Dear list members,

Apparently, an advertisement (i.e. junk e-mail, or "spam") was
sent to the entire list. The advertisement had the subject line
"your health." When a number of you replied to this miscreant,
your messages were sent to the list, not to the spammer.

I would encourage you to send e-mail to webmaster@redwing.on.ca
which is the web site of the internet provider of the person who
spammed this list.

If such incidents become more frequent, I will consider closing
the list to postings from non-list members. I hope that won't
become necessary.

Randy Souther
JCO discussion list owner



From: Ehaggar@aol.com
Date:  Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:11:57 -0500 (EST)
To:   jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: junkmail

Randy,

Hi--like Cyrano, I was wondering if there was anyway we could prevent having
our lovely JCO forum turned into a junk mail delivery thing.....?

Ellen



From: Ehaggar@aol.com
 Date:   Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:13:53 -0500 (EST)
To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: your health

Dear Randy--

Why not close the posting to nonlist members?  We are a democratic group, so
it isn't as if we would be closing anyone out except the person who is trying
to get bunches of groups together for junk mail lists....

Ellen



Date:  Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:15:42 -0800
 From:  Kenny Yapkowitz ken_y@primenet.com
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Re: your health

 Randy Souther wrote:

> ...
>
> If such incidents become more frequent, I will consider closing
> the list to postings from non-list members. I hope that won't
> become necessary.

Why not?  If it's an automatic thing, what's the harm in restricting
posts to members, as long as you don't restrict membership?  People
seriously interested in discussing Joyce Carol Oates and her work
will subscribe and read or post.  People who just want to SPAM
probably won't take the trouble to subscribe first.

If the one extra email that it takes to join the list keeps away two
SPAMS, then it's worth it!

                       ---==>Ken



Date:  Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:05:54 -0500
  From:   Sheree Mancini Brown smancin1@ix.netcom.com
To: jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:   Re: We Were the Mulvaneys

I really respected the depth and breadth of JCO's work on Mulvaney's. 
It works so well as the story of a family's fall from grace after the
violation of their "virgin mary."  The only thing I still ponder is
Marianne's exile from the family.  Although Oates makes clear that
Corinne is forced to choose between her husband and her daughter, I
couldn't quite buy that.  What does everyone think of the chapter
"Plastica?"  That's one of my favorite sections of the book.

smb



Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:21:08 +0000
From:  Jefferson Fietek JFietek@worldnet.att.net
 To:   jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:   Tone Clusters

Hello, my name is Jefferson Fietek and I am brand new to your group.  I 
am a theatre director out of Minneapolis and will be staging a 
production of JCO's TONE CLUSTERS.  I have just begun my research for 
the project and am wondering if anyone has read any interesting articles 
related to this particular play or any articles that you feel would be 
essential to read about Ms. Oates.  Thanks.



From:  RJohn713@aol.com
Date:  Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:48:12 -0500 (EST)
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Tone Clusters

You might read a lengthy interview/overview regarding JCO's playwriting in
AMERICAN THEATRE magazine, February 1994:  "The Sunny Side of Joyce Carol
Oates" by Laurence Shyer.  It focuses on a different play but has much about
her playwriting career in general.  You might also write to JCO herself; she
is always interest in serious mountings of her plays.

Best,

Greg Johnson



Date:  Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:45:31 -0500
 From:   H Massey whm@grove.net
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: your health Junk Mail

It is probably the case that some subscribers to this list do not wish
to receive
this type of crap.  I don't.

To voice my feelings, I sent a msg. to
webmaster@redwing.on.ca
asking for relief from such tripe.

The site of the service from which this piece originated is
http://www.redwing.on.ca/

Perhaps a few notes to the service might help.

Howard Massey

=================================
pes@redwing.on.ca wrote:
> 
> I just wanted to write and tell you about a very interesting product I came across last month.
> 
> James Whelan
> e mail: pes@redwing.on.ca
> 
> TO BE REMOVED FROM MY E MAIL LIST YOU MUST type in UNSUBSCRIBE IN THE SUBECT FEILD of your message,
> OTHER WISE YOU WILL KEEP RECEIVING MY EMAILS.



Date:  Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:57:03 +0000
 From:   "F. Schwartz" fabela@gte.net
To:   jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:   jco in New Yorker

Ms. O writes a balanced and respectful review of Updike's latest in this
week's NYorker.  What I thought was interesting for the group: she
invokes "Handmaid's Tale" toward the end to make a critical point. I
enjoyed reading that because of our earlier debates about Atwood.  Guess
jco respects her, anyway!

Francie



Date:  Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:29:05 -0800 (PST)
From:  Analese VanderSluis vandersl@vancouver.wsu.edu
 To:  jco discussion list jco@usfca.edu

hi, i'm new on the list and i have a small request for other subscribers
to the discussion list.
i'm writing a paper on "accomplished desires" (wheel of love collection) 
and would like some input from others who are interested in this short
story. If you have any thoughts, comments, whatever i'd love to hear them!
thanks!
avs



To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: jco in New Yorker
 From:  composer2@juno.com (David C. Chaudoir)
   Date:  Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:23:22 EST

Updike's latest being "Towards the End of Time" I suspect.  It got bad
reviews in Book list, but then again who trusts Bill Ott's opinion?  Not
me.  JCO always seems to give fair reviews, and I admire and respect her
much more.  Interesting she compares it to Atwood!  I agree w/Francine.  

David



From:  Doozer411 
Date:  Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:35:17 EST
To:   jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Re: jco in New Yorker

What exactly does she say about Handmaid's Tale?    -Lindsay



Date:  Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:11:18 -0500 (EST)
 From:   Jennifer Nash 
  To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: jco in New Yorker

In her review of Updike's "Toward the End of Time" she says "All these are
curious, wayward adventures that seem merely coincidental to 2020 AD - as
indeed the futurist setting seems merely coincidental to Ben's
experience. (Compare, for instance, the intensely imagined contemporary
literary novels "The Handmaid's Tale," by Margaret Atwood and "Fiskadoro"
by Denis Johnson.)"

- jen

"this is the only real concern of the artist, to recreate out of the
disorder of life that order which is art."
- james baldwin

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Doozer411 wrote:

> What exactly does she say about Handmaid's Tale?    -Lindsay
> 



To: jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:   Oates/Upkike/Atwood
 From:  composer2@juno.com (David C. Chaudoir)
Date:Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:42:03 EST

Yes, JCO and John Updike are personal friends.  Doesn't that shade the
review some too, though?  Perhaps there is some mutual admiration society
going on between the three...

David



From:  JonWendell@webtv.net (John Eggers)
 Date:   Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:51:20 -0600
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Oates/Upkike/Atwood

JCO has given fair and honest reviews of Updike's novels in the past.
Most she liked, some she didn't.  I also believe she and Updike are
personal friends.  Margaret Atwood gave 
"Toward the End of Time" an outstanding review in the NY Times (sunday
edition).  The
previous review in NYT panned the new Updike.  This is the same reviewer
that gave 
"Man Crazy" such a bad review.    



Date:  Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:28:14 -0500 (EST)
 From:   Matthew A Cheney macheney@christa.unh.edu
To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: Oates/Upkike/Atwood

If memory serves, Kakutani in the Times compared her vehement dislike of
Updike's "Toward the End of Time" with her hatred of "Man Crazy" in her
Updike review.  Nevertheless, "Toward the End of Time" was listed as one
of the eleven "Editors' Choice" books in the NYT Book Review today, and
"Man Crazy" made it onto the Notables list (as did Atwood's "Alias
Grace").



From:  Cyranomish Cyranomish@aol.com
  Date:  Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:03:47 EST
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Re: "Accomplished Desires"

Hello, AVS.  Welcome to the group.  "Accomplished Desires" is one of JCO's
university/adultry stories that were so prevalent in the 1970s.  You might
find it interesting to compare with a more recent story in WILL YOU ALWAYS
LOVE ME? entitled "The Revenge of the Foot, 1970."  The narrator tells us that
the story takes place back at a time "when wives were the enemy," a great
line.  Cyrano



Date:  Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:48:40 -0800
From:   Randy Souther Randy Souther
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Web Pages Moving

The Joyce Carol Oates web site, Celestial Timepiece, is moving. The new
address will be: http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/southerr/jco.html

Such moves are unfortunate, but inevitable, events in maintaining web
sites. There should be, for some time, a link from the old address to
the new. I expect the move will occur today.

Randy



From:  Doozer411 
Date:   Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:33:59 EST
 To:   jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Thanks, Cyrano!

Finally, someone started a conversation again!  We seem to go through spurts
of silence on this discussion list! Thanks, Cyrano!



From: RJohn713 
  Date:  Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:42:18 EST
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:    Re: "Accomplished Desires"

For those who might be interested, "Accomplished Desires" is based loosely on
Shirley Jackson and her husband-critic Stanley Edgar Hyman's affair with one
of his students.

Greg



Date:  Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:23:57 -0500
 To:   jco@usfca.edu
From:  cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)
 Subject:   Re: "Accomplished Desires"

I missed this.  Would someone please let me know what this is?  A JCO
story?  THANKS.  Cathy Fuller



 From:  Cyranomish 
Date:  Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:09:15 EST
To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Re: Tone Clusters

Hello, Jefferson.  You might find it interesting to consult the JCO homepage
"Celestial Timepiece."  Under the heading FULL TEXT, you will find an essay on
chord structure in JCO's short story "Heat."  Oates likened the writing of
that story to playing the piano without using the pedals, and the essay takes
a very technical approach to JCO's use of music in that particular story --
there should be some interesting parallels to what she's doing in "Tone
Clusters."  Good luck with your play.  Is it happening anywhere in the Boston
area?  If so, I'd like to see it.  Cyrano



From:  Cyranomish 
Date:   Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:25:27 EST
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: "Accomplished Desires"

Hi, Greg: That's really interesting info.  Shirley Jackson went to Syracuse,
like JCO, and I wondered if they'd ever met.  Apparently JCO heard the
scuttlebut on Jackson's marriage, which I believe was a turbulent one.  But
Jackson didn't commit suicide, did she?  At least not in a direct manner, as
the poet does in "Accomplished Desires."  The description of Barbara barking
with laughter on the phone  while her marriage collapses around her was so
intriguing; I always figured it was based on an actual relationship that JCO
had seen.  JCO reviewed a Jackson anthology last year -- she didn't care for
some of the second-rate stuff the editors included, but spoke well of the
author.  Do you have any background info on that other JCO university story
"The Expense of the Spirit?"  I always figured that was inspired by incidents
at Madison,  where JCO got her MA (and Mrs.).  Cyrano



Date:  Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:18:25 +0000
 From:  Jefferson Fietek JFietek@worldnet.att.net
To:   jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: Tone Clusters

Cyranomish Thank You Very Much for your input I will go luck that 
article up.  The Production of TONE CLUSTERS will be taking place in 
Minneapolis.

-Jefferson



From:  RJohn713 
 Date:   Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:21:58 EST
  To:   jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Re: "Accomplished Desires"

Yes, "The Expense of Spirit" is based on JCO's grad school days in Madison.
"Accomplished Desires" is only "loosely" based on the Jackson-Hyman situation
(Hyman is a critic JCO particularly disliked; as early as 1966, she wrote an
angry letter to the editor about a review Hyman had published on Nabokov; and
she lampooned him in EXPENSIVE PEOPLE as well, in the section on "reviews of
EXPENSIVE PEOPLE").  Like most fiction writers, she uses some real-life
details in such stories and interweaves them with wholly fictional ones....

Greg



Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:58:49 -0500
From:  Sheree Mancini Brown smancin1@ix.netcom.com
To:   jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: Web Pages Moving

Randy Souther wrote:
> 
> The Joyce Carol Oates web site, Celestial Timepiece, is moving. The new
> address will be: http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/southerr/jco.html
> 
> Such moves are unfortunate, but inevitable, events in maintaining web
> sites. There should be, for some time, a link from the old address to
> the new. I expect the move will occur today.
> 
> Randy

I have been unable to access this link.  Any suggestions?
smb



Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:07:02 -0800
  From:   Randy Souther Randy Souther
To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:    Re: Web Pages Moving


Sheree Mancini Brown wrote:

> Randy Souther wrote:
> >
> > The Joyce Carol Oates web site, Celestial Timepiece, is
> moving. The new
> > address will be:
> http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/southerr/jco.html
> >
>
> I have been unable to access this link.  Any suggestions?
> smb

Well, our computer support folks wanted to make the move
"immediately," but of course they didn't. So I would say just use
the usual address until that address stops getting you anywhere,
at which time you should use the new address.

Randy



From:  Cyranomish Cyranomish@aol.com
 Date:  Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:06:15 EST
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Xmas

Now that Christmas day is safely over, has anyone read "Christmas Night, 1962"
in the anthology WILL YOU ALWAYS LOVE ME?  Cyrano  



From:  marsbase@earthlink.net
Date:  Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:28:41 +0100
 To:   jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Xmas

Or....how about opening of " Wonderland ", and also
sections in which Jesse spends Christmas with Dr.
Pederson and family? !

    Happy New Year!     ........ alan



From: Ehaggar Ehaggar@aol.com
Date:   Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:43:53 EST
To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Xmas

I read Christmas 1962 FOR Christmas hehehehehe

happy holidays to all from

Ellen Haggar



Date:  Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:43:07 -0800 (PST)
From:   Erlome erl@efn.org
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Xmas

On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, Cyranomish wrote:

> Now that Christmas day is safely over, has anyone read "Christmas Night, 1962"
> in the anthology WILL YOU ALWAYS LOVE ME?  Cyrano

Yes, i read it just a few weeks ago.

JCO has said that she writes on more than one level: one that can be read
only as a story, and a less obvious or more symbolic one.  I often read
her stories without recognizing the latter.  Do you think this story is
more than a picture of a mother's self-sacrificing love and a comment on
the medical establishment ?

Do you think that many of her stories *are* just what they seem: dramatic
scenes with psychological content representing different types of
characters and aspects of society ?

erlome



From:  Cyranomish Cyranomish@aol.com
 Date:  Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:29:47 EST
To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Xmas

Hi, Erlome.  I thought "Christmas Night, 1962" was mainly a realistic piece:
possibly a section from a novel in progress.  The touch I most admired was the
little Xmas tree in the hospital waiting room with the fake, empty "presents"
under it.  A comment on the medical establishment, I should think.  I also was
struck by the scene when the little girl's coat falls open in the middle of
that emergency room scene, and the nurses are surprised to see how lovingly
she is dressed -- not just a stereotyped pathetic little waif, but a  child
who is loved -- as much as her family is able to love her.  Cyrano



Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:19:49 -0800
From:  Randy Souther Randy Souther
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  Re: Xmas

Perhaps it is an ironic retelling of the Christmas story: no room
at the inn; a daddy who is not really a father "he used to be
Daddy but says not to call him that any more." Probably one
shouldn't push the comparison too far, but there do seem to be
allusions in this direction.

Randy
 

Erlome wrote:

> JCO has said that she writes on more than one level: one that
> can be read
> only as a story, and a less obvious or more symbolic one.  I
> often read
> her stories without recognizing the latter.  Do you think this
> story is
> more than a picture of a mother's self-sacrificing love and a
> comment on
> the medical establishment ?



Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:38:13 -0500
From:  PACDIALUP@CUYAHOGA.LIB.OH.US
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  An Apology

First, I'm sorry this has been so long in coming.  I wasn't sure if 
I should write any more about it, but it's been bothering me, thus 
this message.

I sent a link to this group a while back to the Jolly Roger discussion
boards.  Although I knew that it was a conservative site, I thought 
that some of you might like some of the boards.  I didn't know about 
that organizations extreme opposition to JCO, who is one of my 
favorite authors.  How could I not know this, you ask?  Well, the
Jolly Roger homepage, which is apparently where they disparage her,
seems to be in a frame.  The browser I use, Lynx 2.5, does not
support frames.  Therefore, quite obviously, I didn't read it.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, as that was certainly not at all
my intention.  

Sincerely,

JD

PS  If you're wondering why I use such an outdated browser, it's 
because I use a public access terminal at a local library, and 
it's the browser they've chosen.



Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:14:56 -0800 (PST)
From:  Erlome erl@efn.org
Subject:  Re: An Apology

> that organizations extreme opposition to JCO

Such an extreme opposition might be a point of interest.  Please
tell me what the Jolly Roger group is and where to find it.  

One would think a conservative group would like to applaud JCO for 
writing Black Water, even if politics wasn't the issue. 



From: Doozer411 Doozer411@aol.com
 Date:   Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:33:08 EST
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:   Re: An Apology

Yes, please tell us what the Jolly Roger discussion group is.  I'm kind of
confused with this whole thing. -Lindsay



From:  Cyranomish 
Date:  Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:32:17 EST
 To:   jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: An Apology

Dear JD.  Don't worry about it.  I was interested to know about Jolly Roger's
existence.  It might be fun to go over there and buzz their webcite someday,.
As good old Henrietta
Stackpole says in PORTRAIT OF A LADY: "It's good to have enemies; it proves
that you're making an effect."  JCO definitely makes an effect, don't you
think?  Cyrano



From: Cyranomish 
Date:  Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:44:30 EST
To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Xmas

Hi, Randy.  I think you're on to something with that "no room in the inn"
allusion.  I thought I saw similar allusions at work in the story collection
HAUNTED.  "The Guilty Party" has undertones of a modern-day matter delorosa
and her homocidal infant in search of that elusive FATHER. Cyrano



Date:  Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:45:25 -0800
 From:  Randy Souther Randy Souther
 To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: An Apology

JD,

I'm glad to hear this Jolly Roger thing was just a
misunderstanding. Having been on the Internet for a while, I
should have known to query you privately before I reviled you
publicly. In 1995, almost the only JCO information you could find
on the Internet was made by either me or the Jolly Roger--so I've
had a low opinion of them for quite some time. Your apology is
accepted, and I hope you'll accept mine for being such a hot-head.

Randy

Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 12-28-97
Send comments and suggestions to Randy Souther