Subject:  Foxfire in the Crossfire
     Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:10:37 -0800
    From:  Randy Souther Randy Souther
         To: jco jco@usfca.edu


The following article on the Foxfire controversy 
was kindly provided to me by Greg Johnson:


FOXFIRE IN THE CROSSFIRE by Lawrence Hill

You have to hand it to a small but militant Halton group called Parents
Against Corrupt Teaching (PACT) for elevating the art of book banning to
new, vindictive heights.

Over the last 15 years, novels by Timothy Findley, Margaret Laurence,
Allce Munro, Mordecai Richler, John Steinbeck, Mark Twain and many
others have been the subjects of ban attempts across Canada.

But it is doubtful that any anti-book crusaders have managed to alarm
people -- or to win an interim ban against the use of a book in school
-- as deftly as PACT, which formed after Jack Huisman pounced upon a
novel that his 16-year-old son brought home last year from his Grade 12
English class at the Milton District High School.

Thc book was Foxfire: Confessions of a Girl Gang, by  Joyce Carol Oates,
professor in the humanities at Princeton University since 1978. Oates
has more then 20 novels and many short story collections and plays to
her credit. Among her literary prizes, she has won the National Book
Award and a Guggenheim award, and has been short-listed several times
for the Pulitzer Prize. She is one of the best known writers of serious
flction alive today in the United States.

 Foxfire charts the rise and the fall of a gang of poor, white teenage
girls living in a small town in New York State in the 1950s. Raised in a
community teeming with alcoholism, unemployment and violence against
wonmen, the girls fall under the spell of a charismatic young leader.
Initially, the girls bond for self-protection. They publicly humiliate a
math teacher who sexually abuses one of his students. They beat up a man
who is about to rape his adolescent niece. Elated with their first
victories, the gang members soon spin out of control. They lose the
ability to think independently, and they follow their leader on a path
of increasingly violent and indiscriminate crime.

The novel is narrated by Maddy Wirth, a middle-aged scientist who looks
back on her years as a gang member. As an adolescent, Maddy  was devoted
to the gang in a numbing, self-denying way that resembles what can
happen to members of fundamentalist religious cults. Still, she managed
to tear herself away from the group as it prepared to commit its final
and most senseless act of violence.

Much like J.D. Salinger's famous novel The Catcher in the Rye captured
the angry, alienated voice of a teenage boy, Oates' Foxfire delivers the
gritty, unsentimental voices of abused adolescent girls. Profanities
abound, but they're delivered effectively -- for the most part in highly
credible dialogue.

The Houston Post aptly called Foxfire "a fierce indictment of a society
that forces lts weakest members to take the law into their own hands. It
also explores the tragic dimensions of gang life and how oppressed young
women relate to each other."

 Foxfire won rave reviews from critics in The New York Times Book
Review, The New Yorker, The Boston Globe and elsewhere, but Jack Huisman
and the members of PACT have their own ideas about the book.

They have distributed 60,000 copies of a 16-page flyer to homes in
Milton, Burlington and Oakville, denouncing Foxfire in the most
sernsational tone imaginable.

The first page of the flyer shouts out in tabloid-like capital letters:
"Look inside and see what our children are reading at Milton District
High School (and soon at your local high school in Halton too)."

Three inside pages provide detailed excerpts of swear words and ideas
that offend Huisman. Here is a brief sample from the flyer's long list:

Page 12: fuck it
Page 21: shit
Page 46: asshole
Page 84: underage drinking and smoking marijuana
Page 95: carload full of young males out making trouble on Halloween
Page 195: dwarf woman
Page 202: disgusting capitalist
Page 273: God and Jesus turned against her
Page 282: voluptuous big breasts.

"The novel is nothing but a cheap imported sex manual from the United
States, glorifying the homosexual behavior of its lead character"
Huisman writes in the flyer. "The only people endorsing this type of
literature are the educational elite, one proud atheist for life, and
the homosexual community." Huisman goes on to accuse Halton school
trustees and a former superintendent with the board of education of
"misusing their power in imposing their community standards, which is
sex, sex and more sex!" He claims that the book "represents a seal of
approval on pornography," and makes the absurdly paranoid argument that
"teachers are using this material to prepare and recruit victims."

After passing moral judgment on the book's defenders, Huisman, a
chartered accountant stakes out the high ground in the flyer, describing
himself as "a father of eight wonderful children, and at 53 still madly
in love with his first and only sweetheart of a wife."

If this smear campaign by Huisman and PACT had no impact on the Halton
Board of Education, I would be pleased to ignore it. But, backed Rev Ken
Campbell, who heads a group called Canada's Civilized Majority -- which
describes itself as "an interfaith citizen's lobby for God and for
good'' -- Huisman and PACT have already won some disturbing victories.

Using a cut-out  petition inserted in his flyer, Huisman has given the
Halton Board of Education about 900 names of people he urged to call for
ban on Foxfire .

He has pushed the Milton District High School into dropping Foxfire from
the curriculum while the book wends its way through two formal reviews
conducted by the Halton Board of Education. The first review, comprising
a vice-principal, two teachers and four parents from the school,
rendered a mixed verdict in November. It said Foxfire was suitable for
many Grade 12 students and should remain a part of the school's advanced
English program. But it also recommended that Foxfire be studied only by
small groups or by individuals -- instead of being studied by the entire
class, which is how the book was first introduced in the school. The
review committee also recommended that the school alert parents in
writing before teaching "controversial material."

 Huisman has appealed the decision to a regional review committee made
up of Halton educators and a trustee who works outside Milton. He
concedes that when he complained about Foxfire, the school offered his
son an alternate novel to read. But he says he will only be satisfied if
the book is completely removed from the curriculum.

But even if the regional review committee -- expected to pronounce
judgment early in 1997 -- rules in favor of Foxfire, Huisman has sounded
alarm bells that could well impede the teaching of serious, contemporary
literature.

In an era of cutbacks and widespread concern about the future of public
education ln Ontario, Huisman has given teachers, school administrators
and trustees one more reason to quietly avoid scandal by opting for
safe, tepid literature that will cause no student to think and no parent
to object. Huisman and the Parents Against Corrupt Teachers aren't in a
position to hurt Oates' international reputation. But they could make it
difficult for lesser-known, contemporary Canadian authors to place their
books in local schools -- particularly if they write about painful or
controversial subjects.

Foxfire has nothing to do with pornography or sex manuals, although it
is easy to whip up parental anxiety by excerpting a long list of swear
words out of context.  A thoughtful reading shows that Foxfire is a
sensitive account of the struggles and failures of young girls who try
to assert themselves in a world that doesn't care about them.

Since 1973, Barry Callaghan, a Torornto writer and editor, has published
23 of Oates' short stories in his literary magazine, Exile. He groaned
when told of the movement against Foxfire, and of the pages of
four-letter words listed in the protest flyer. 

 "A list of swear words on a page means nothing," Callaghan said.
''There is no meaning in language if you don't understand the
relationship between words .... Part of Oates' genius lies ln her ear.
She has perfect pitch for the way people, particularly young people,
talk to each other, which is probably why a book like Foxfire, about the
roles between young women in a gang, is so unsettling to people who
would rather know nothing than know something."

I faxed Oates some information about the Foxfire controversy, and she
replied within 24 hours.

"I can see [them calling Foxfire ] 'trashy,'" she wrote, tongue in
cheek. "But 'pornographic?' 'Sex manual?' I wonder where [that comes
from]? Coincidentally, I just returned from a remarkable visit to an
academic high school in Washington, D,C., where we discussed at length,
and very intensely, Foxfire . Students both male and female reacted very
positively to the novel and said it was 'true to life' -- though set in
the 1950's. All that was missing was the prevalence of drugs in teenage
culture. It was a quite emotional and, for the author, wonderfully
rewarding and stimulating session."

The Halton Board of Education ought to invite Joyce Carol Oates to
deliver a guest lecture to students and their parents. She could cut
through some of the needless hysteria generated by the Halton Parents
Against Corrupt Teaching. 

(Lawrence Hlll is the author of the novel Some Great Thing and two books
about the history of blacks in Canada. His second novel, Any Known
Blood, will be published in September by HarperCollins. He teaches
creat:ive writing at Ryerson Polytechnic University, and lives in
Oakville.)



Subject:  [Fwd: Re: Read any good books lately?]
     Date:  Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:06:57 -0800
    From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
         To: jco@usfca.edu


Subject:  Re: Read any good books lately?
     Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 14:23:05 EST
    From:  Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
         To: southerr@USFCA.EDU


Sorry its taken me so long to respond.

On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:55:01 -0800 you said:
>I would be interested to know what works of
>JCO people have been reading, and what they
>have liked and disliked.
I've read most of her collected short fiction, with the exception of _Will You
Always Love Me_.  I enjoy her more recent work, with the more supernatural/
horrifying slant, which is what got me to start reading her.

>Or what is your "favorite" JCO book or story.
>Alternately, what you think is her "best" book(s)
>or story (not necessarily the same question).
My favorite book was my first Oates collection:  _Haunted:  Tales of the
Grotesque_.  I like most of the stories in it, particularly "Accursed
Inhabitants of the House of Bly," "Martyrdom," "Extenuating Circumstances," and
"The Premonition."  Outside of that collection, I'm partial towards "Where Are
You Going, Where Have You Been," "Wild Onion," and "Notes on Contributors" (the
last because of its unique form)

I haven't read many of her novels, but my favorite one of them was _them_.
I keep planning to read _Zombie_, if my professors will give me a free
weekend.  So far all I've done is look at bits grossly out of context.

>This is a new group--you'll have to forgive my
>blatant attempts at seeding the conversation. ;)
You're forgiven :)

Mark Sutton



Subject:  Haunted
     Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:27:19 -0800
    From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
         To: jco@usfca.edu


Mark Sutton wrote:

>  I enjoy her more recent work, with the more supernatural/
> horrifying slant, which is what got me to start reading her. 
> My favorite book was my first Oates collection:  _Haunted:  Tales of the
> Grotesque_.  I like most of the stories in it, particularly "Accursed
> Inhabitants of the House of Bly," "Martyrdom," "Extenuating Circumstances," and
> "The Premonition."  Outside of that collection, I'm partial towards "Where Are
> You Going, Where Have You Been," "Wild Onion," and "Notes on Contributors" (the
> last because of its unique form)

I find myself also drawn to the gothic/horror/grotesque in Oates.
In HAUNTED, I particularly "liked" (if that's the right word) 
"Martyrdom"; occasionally you run across a work of horror so
effective that it fills you with an odd combination of glee and
revulsion--thus the rat's-eye-view in "Martyrdom" for me.  I also
thought "The Model" was great. Oates frequently (I believe) writes
obliquely about being an artist/writer, and "The Model", looked
at in this way, becomes very sinister on a whole different level
from the surface plot.

Randy Souther



Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:27:19 -0800
From: Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Haunted


"Martyrdom" is one of those weird stories where you admire the construction
not necessarily the subject matter.  The thing that stood out to me about it
(mainly because of I was looking at this theme at the time) was how much Baby
_willingly_ went through (starting with the "birthday party").  Her dependency
was horrifying.

I didn't really care for "The Model," but the artist/writer approach makes
sense.  Guess I'll need to look at it again.

BTW. Anybody read _Will You Always Love Me?_  How are the stories?

Mark



Subject:  Re: [Fwd: Re: Read any good books lately?]
                Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 04:29:46 +0000
               From: Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
Organization: Copo Ltd
                   To:  Randy Souther


Randy Souther wrote:
> 
> Mark Sutton wrote:
> 
> Sorry its taken me so long to respond.
> 
> On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:55:01 -0800 you said:
> >I would be interested to know what works of
> >JCO people have been reading, and what they
> >have liked and disliked.
> I've read most of her collected short fiction, with the exception of _Will You
> Always Love Me_.  I enjoy her more recent work, with the more supernatural/
> horrifying slant, which is what got me to start reading her.
> 
> >Or what is your "favorite" JCO book or story.
> >Alternately, what you think is her "best" book(s)
> >or story (not necessarily the same question).
> My favorite book was my first Oates collection:  _Haunted:  Tales of the
> Grotesque_.  I like most of the stories in it, particularly "Accursed
> Inhabitants of the House of Bly," "Martyrdom," "Extenuating Circumstances," and
> "The Premonition."  Outside of that collection, I'm partial towards "Where Are
> You Going, Where Have You Been," "Wild Onion," and "Notes on Contributors" (the
> last because of its unique form)
> 
> I haven't read many of her novels, but my favorite one of them was _them_.
> I keep planning to read _Zombie_, if my professors will give me a free
> weekend.  So far all I've done is look at bits grossly out of context.
> 
> >This is a new group--you'll have to forgive my
> >blatant attempts at seeding the conversation. ;)
> You're forgiven :)
> 
> Mark Sutton
My favorite story is ZOMBIE (as it appeared in New Yorker - better 
than the longer book version) and favorite book(s) are BLACK WATER, 
FOXFIRE and THEM.  I've never read the science fiction.  I suspect 
that the best book is BECAUSE IT IS BLACK etc, but THEM is classic.  
It's hard to say what is best book, so many are so good!
Mark, believe an author and compulsive O reader, the short story 
version from New Yorker Magazine is much stronger and more disturbing 
than the book version.  Check it out!



From: Murray72@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:06:02 -0500 (EST)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: "Will You Always Love Me?"

>BTW. Anybody read _Will You Always Love Me?_  How are the stories?

I read it and enjoyed it quite a bit, though since it was the only book of
her stories I have read, I couldn't say how it compares.  I mainly read her
novels; my favorites are 
Foxfire and Because it is Bitter and Because it is my Heart.

Christine



Subject: [Fwd: Re: Read any good books lately?]]
 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 23:01:24 EST
Resent-From:  Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
     Resent-To: Joyce Carol Oates Mailing List jco@usfca.edu

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Francie Schwartz wrote:

Mark, believe an author and compulsive O reader, the short story
version from New Yorker Magazine is much stronger and more disturbing
than the book version.  Check it out!
What's the publication information?



Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Read any good books lately?]]
                Date:  Fri, 21 Feb 1997 04:13:17 +0000
               From:  Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
        Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
Organization: Copo Ltd
                   To: jco 


> 
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Francie Schwartz wrote:
> 
> Mark, believe an author and compulsive O reader, the short story
> version from New Yorker Magazine is much stronger and more disturbing
> than the book version.  Check it out!
> What's the publication information?

Hmmmm.  I would have to check Periodicals, The New Yorker, 1995-6 for 
exact pub date.  Or, do you know of a complete listing of all original 
pub dates for jco short stories?  I was so upset when I first read it 
that I didn't save the issue... but then I got the book from my local 
library (it was disturbing, but it was jco, so I had to check it out) 
and found that the long form (about 120 pp), absent the extremely 
sharp focus required for magazine length, wasn't so great.  I wonder 
which she wrote first.  Hope I'm forwarding this correctly... Francie



Subject:  Re: [Fwd: Re: Read any good books lately?]]
  Resent-Date:  Fri, 21 Feb 97 08:42:47 EST
 Resent-From: Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
      Resent-To: Joyce Carol Oates Mailing List jco@usfca.edu



I don't know of a list of publication dates (can anyone else, with the amount
jco publishes, see keeping this list as an absolute bibliographic nightmare? :)
) but with that date I can trace the issue.  Thanks



Subject:  Zombie
           Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 07:24:33 -0800
          From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
    Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu



Francie Schwartz wrote:
> 
> I don't know of a list of publication dates (can anyone else, with the amount
> jco publishes, see keeping this list as an absolute bibliographic nightmare? :)
> ) but with that date I can trace the issue.  Thanks


Not quite a nightmare, but difficult enough.  ;)
Try http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/jcoby.art.html

Randy Souther



Subject:  Zombie
        Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:30:25 -0500 (EST)
       From: LoriLamb@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu


Regarding recent discussion about Zombie, I also was not impressed with the
book.  I like so much of Oates' other work better.  The book was morbidlly
fascinating, though.  I read it straight through without putting it down.
 When I read it I kept thinking about Bret Easton Ellis' novel American
Psycho.  Has anyone read that?  If you thought Zombie was graphic, check out A
P.  Ellis' work, like Oates' , and I think Joan Didion's, all has that same
kind of dark element--very interesting and thought provoking (although BEE is
a bit "80's" and immature).  They write about the things we probably all
think, but would never, never admit to thinking.  

I am so glad that SOMEONE finally got this JCO thing going . . . I've been
waiting for this.  I am currently working on my Master's thesis on JCO.  This
has been a lot of work, but interesting because I love Oates' work.  I am
frustrated with the lack of criticism on her work--especially current
criticism.

Lori



Subject:  Re: Zombie
           Date:  Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:28:16 -0800
          From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
    Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu


LoriLamb@aol.com wrote:
>  When I read it I kept thinking about Bret Easton Ellis' novel American
> Psycho.  Has anyone read that?  If you thought Zombie was graphic, check out A
> P.  Ellis' work, like Oates' , and I think Joan Didion's, all has that same
> kind of dark element--very interesting and thought provoking (although BEE is
> a bit "80's" and immature).  They write about the things we probably all
> think, but would never, never admit to thinking.

I have read American Psycho. It was a difficult book to read, 
but I'm glad I did. I think the controversy over that novel was
misguided.


> I am currently working on my Master's thesis on JCO.  This
> has been a lot of work, but interesting because I love Oates' work.  I am
> frustrated with the lack of criticism on her work--especially current
> criticism.


I am curious--what is the topic of your thesis, or what books are
you focusing on?

Randy Souther



Subject:  JCO Master's Thesis
        Date:  Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:54:15 -0500 (EST)
       From:  LoriLamb@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu


In reply to your message, I am focusing on gender issues in JCO's work.  I
really need to find some brilliant "thesis" and narrow it down, but as usual
I will probably discover it as I write and research.  I always seem to work
that way.  I read Judith Butler's Gender Trouble, and have Thomas Laquer's
Making Sex, Michel Foucault's History of Sexuality, Andrea Dworkin's
Intercourse, etc. on my reading list.  Also, probably Freud and Julia
Kristeva will come into this, too.

I am focusing on novels, but want to include some novellas and short stories.
 I will probably use:  Foxfire, Do With Me What You Will, The Goddess and
Other Women (I'm not sure what stories yet),  The Rise of Life on Earth,
Marya:  A Life, I Lock My Door Upon Myself, Solstice, and Black Water, two
stories from Heat, and maybe 2 from Tales of the Grotesque.

Are you working on a thesis or a dissertation?  Or have you completed yours?

Lori



Subject:   Re: JCO Master's Thesis
                Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 18:22:38 +0000
               From:  Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
        Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
Organization:  Copo Ltd
                   To: jco@usfca.edu



LoriLamb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In reply to your message, I am focusing on gender issues in JCO's work.  I
> really need to find some brilliant "thesis" and narrow it down, but as usual
> I will probably discover it as I write and research.  I always seem to work
> that way.  I read Judith Butler's Gender Trouble, and have Thomas Laquer's
> Making Sex, Michel Foucault's History of Sexuality, Andrea Dworkin's
> Intercourse, etc. on my reading list.  Also, probably Freud and Julia
> Kristeva will come into this, too.
> 
> I am focusing on novels, but want to include some novellas and short stories.
>  I will probably use:  Foxfire, Do With Me What You Will, The Goddess and
> Other Women (I'm not sure what stories yet),  The Rise of Life on Earth,
> Marya:  A Life, I Lock My Door Upon Myself, Solstice, and Black Water, two
> stories from Heat, and maybe 2 from Tales of the Grotesque.
> 
> Are you working on a thesis or a dissertation?  Or have you completed yours?
> 
> Lori

Hi, Lori.  I attempted to reply to your Zombie message and was 
notified that itcouldn't be sent as addressed.  I hope this one works.  
I don't believe American Psycho deserves direct comparison, except 
insofar as it does, as you pointed out, deal with thoughts none of us 
would be likely to admit entertaining.  I think BEE's best and most 
honest work was _Less than Zero_; he was writing at his true level 
(somewhere between Beverly Hills and Maalibu).  With American Psycho, 
he overreached.  No one who does not possess JCO's talent, experience, 
consummate skill, maturity or insight should attempt to write madness 
from the inside - even if it is loaded up with campy stylish - if 
dated - references to cultural icons of the moment.  And then there's 
the clear misogynistic line throughout BEE.  Interesting that you 
chose AmerPsycho as being even more graphic than Zombie.  JCO has a 
unique way of transcending gender bias by making her monster 
protagonists border on the metaphorical.  I could go on and on.  Think 
of the graphic violence in THEM.  FOXFIRE's no slouch in this 
department either.  But ZOMBIE haunts me (the short story version, not 
the book, which falters and diffuses the effect) because of its 
depiction of the "Beloved".  I think she really was saying something 
about our fantasy lovers, the objects of desire, what we want from our 
sexual partners in modern America.  As usual, she is prophetic.  

Anyway! I wish you the best of luck with your Master's.  I am a jco 
addict who has read her novels since I was a teenager.  I have also 
been mistaken for jco once, when I was in my thirties.  Right now I am 
writing the preparatory work for a dissertation myself.  You may be 
onto something when you say there is little or no critical analysis of 
jco... her oeuvre's too intimidating!  Too vast!  But gender issues, 
now there's an approach that may work.

Francie



Subject:    Re: JCO Master's Thesis
           Date:   Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:26:53 -0800
          From:   Randy Souther Randy Souther
    Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu

LoriLamb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Are you working on a thesis or a dissertation?  Or have you completed yours?
> 

Several years ago I began working on a thesis but abandoned it
for a different degree. It wasn't very ambitious--I just wanted
to explicate the Gothic Trilogy ;)  I did finish the BELLEFLEUR
section, and have all my notes for BLOODSMOOR and WINTERTHURN. I
may even do something with this material one day. My JCO energies
have mostly been taken up with the Web site for the last year and
a half, which has been very satisfying in itself.

Randy



Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:14:29 -0600 (CST)
From: ANDREA WRIGHT AWRIGHT@GAMMA.IS.TCU.EDU
Subject: Re: JCO Master's Thesis
To: jco@usfca.edu
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu

I, too, am glad that a JCO listserv has been developed--I have enjoyed reading
everyone's reactions to her texts, and could certainly add some of my own (for
example, no one has mentioned yet You Must Remember This and What I Lived
For--two of her greatest novels, I believe, for their fascinating character
studies).  Good luck on your Master's thesis, Lori (I hope I got your name
right!)  I am currently working on my doctoral dissertation and including Oates
as one of the three contemporary women authors that I will focus on in depth.
My dissertation focuses around memory in women authors' works--a broad and
chaotic category that I am trying to narrow down right now.  I, too, have been
disturbed by the lack of criticism concerning her work--except for a group of
books written in the 1970s and 1980s, when her work was first beginning to be
noticed, nothing much has been done as of late, particularly concerning her
most recent work, which I consider her best to date.  Perhaps that's where we
come in!  Brenda Daly's newest book, just published in 1996, is supposed to be
quite good--though I haven't read it yet, I've heard good things about it.

Andrea Wright



From: "BARTHEL,DONALD" 111527@OVMAIL.kodak.com
To: JCO@usfca.edu
Subject: The Dunwich Horror
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:28:09 -0500
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
                                                      
 
From: Donald R. Barthel, MIPP Labour Loan, 2/30, K.P. (77110)                  
Subject: The Dunwich Horror                                                    
 
 Perhaps my memory has failed me, or my imagination has overtaken me, but      
wasn't JCO supposed to have released a novel called "The Dunwich Horror?"      
(I believe it would have been an exploration of the horror genre, as "Belle-   
fleur" was of the gothic?)                                                     
 Yours, with curiosity,                                                        
 
Donald R. Barthel       



Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 21:16:32 -0500
From: scot goldberg 
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Research help?
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu

I am writing a research report on Joyce Carol Oates.  I have decided to
focus on the male dominating society.  I also want to discuss tragedy
and violence.  Is there anyone I can talk to that can help me?

Please Respond
Thanks
 Julie Goldberg

 seg@bellatlantic.net       



Subject:   Re: The Dunwich Horror
     Date:  Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:27:21 -0800
    From:  Randy Souther Randy Souther
         To: jco jco@usfca.edu


>  Perhaps my memory has failed me, or my imagination has overtaken me, but
> wasn't JCO supposed to have released a novel called "The Dunwich Horror?"
> (I believe it would have been an exploration of the horror genre, as "Belle-
> fleur" was of the gothic?)
>  Yours, with curiosity,
> 
> Donald R. Barthel

I believe JCO's Gothic genre series is supposed to include five
novels, three of which have been published (BELLEFLEUR, A BLOODSMOOR
ROMANCE, AND MYSTERIES OF WINTERTHURN).  I believe the fourth was
supposed to be "The Crosswicks Horror" and the fifth "My Heart Laid
Bare." Since I particularly enjoy this series, I'm always impatiently
awaiting its continuation. 

(The Dunwich Horror is Shirley Jackson, isn't it?)

Randy Souther
Randy Souther      



Subject:  Re: The Dunwich Horror
        Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:50:25 -0500 (EST)
       From:  RJohn713@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To:  jco@usfca.edu


I hate to throw cold water on the idea of THE CROSSWICKS HORROR being
published, but the possibility seems increasingly remote.  The remaining two
novels of the quintet were written and revised (more than once) over a decade
ago, and it appears likely that they won't be published at all, since they
have many times been superseded by more recent, more "realistic," and more
marketable books by JCO.

However, a chapter called "Rabies and Race: A Hypothesis" was published in
PARTISAN REVIEW, 50, ii (1983):  202-12, if anyone is interested in a sample.

Greg Johnson     



Subject: Re: The Dunwich Horror
        Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:01:46 -0500 (EST)
       From:  Fred Frank ffrank@gremlan.org
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu


"The Dunwich Horror" is a famous H.P. Lovecraft story.

Fred Frank

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Randy Souther wrote:

> >  Perhaps my memory has failed me, or my imagination has overtaken me, but
> > wasn't JCO supposed to have released a novel called "The Dunwich Horror?"
> > (I believe it would have been an exploration of the horror genre, as "Belle-
> > fleur" was of the gothic?)
> >  Yours, with curiosity,
> > 
> > Donald R. Barthel
> 
> I believe JCO's Gothic genre series is supposed to include five
> novels, three of which have been published (BELLEFLEUR, A BLOODSMOOR
> ROMANCE, AND MYSTERIES OF WINTERTHURN).  I believe the fourth was
> supposed to be "The Crosswicks Horror" and the fifth "My Heart Laid
> Bare." Since I particularly enjoy this series, I'm always impatiently
> awaiting its continuation. 
> 
> (The Dunwich Horror is Shirley Jackson, isn't it?)
> 
> Randy Souther
> Randy Souther
>     



Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 20:57:33 -0800
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: Nikki Senecal senecal@scf.usc.edu
Subject: Re: Research help?
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu

>I am writing a research report on Joyce Carol Oates.  I have decided to
>focus on the male dominating society.  I also want to discuss tragedy
>and violence.  Is there anyone I can talk to that can help me?

I am writing my DISSERTATION *just* on women's violence in Joyce Carol
Oates.  I think you need to narrow your topic.  And your professor should
have told you that.  If you can be more specific, I could help.

Nikki Senecal

Nikki Senecal, ABD
Department of English
University of Southern California
Los Angeles, CA 90089-0354
Fax:
Internet: senecal@scf-fs.usc.edu

Subject:   Re: New American Gothic
        Date:   Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:36:58 -0500 (EST)
       From:  RJohn713@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu


You might also consider JCO's reworkings of Henry James's classic American
Gothic tale, THE TURN OF THE SCREW.  Her versions are "The Turn of the Screw"
in MARRIAGES AND INFIDELITIES (1972) and "Accursed Inhabitants of the House
of Bly" (in HAUNTED: TALES OF THE GROTESQUE).  Her afterword to HAUNTED and
her essay "Wonderlands" in (WOMAN) WRITER should also be helpful to you.

Greg Johnson       



Subject:  Re: JCO Master's Thesis
        Date:  Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:02:00 -0500 (EST)
       From:  Annedyer@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu
          CC:  Annedyer@aol.com


In a message dated 97-02-22 03:28:46 EST, you write:

> Several years ago I began working on a thesis but abandoned it
>  for a different degree. It wasn't very ambitious--I just wanted
>  to explicate the Gothic Trilogy ;)  I did finish the BELLEFLEUR
>  section, and have all my notes for BLOODSMOOR and WINTERTHURN. I
>  may even do something with this material one day. My JCO energies
>  have mostly been taken up with the Web site for the last year and
>  a half, which has been very satisfying in itself.
>  
>  Randy
>  

I recently read the Gothic Trilogy unintentionally.  I read BELLEFLEUR first
and was so struck that I raided Houston's rare book store and found first
editions of BLOODS-
MOOR and WINTHERTHURN---I was totally enraptured.  The woman is amazing. Last
semester I was in Spain and JCO came to lecture at my school and I missed her
and my dad knew how much I admire her so he bought me 3 first editions
(including WE WERE THE MULVANEYS) and sent them to her and asked her to sign
them for me.  She did! She signed them with a personal note just in time for
Christmas! THE best present ever! She is something else.       



Subject:    Re: The Dunwich Horror
        Date:  Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:17:08 -0500 (EST)
       From:  Annedyer@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu
          CC: Annedyer@aol.com


In a message dated 97-02-25 22:51:34 EST, you write:

> I hate to throw cold water on the idea of THE CROSSWICKS HORROR being
>  published, but the possibility seems increasingly remote.  The remaining
two
>  novels of the quintet were written and revised (more than once) over a 
> decade
>  ago, and it appears likely that they won't be published at all, since they
>  have many times been superseded by more recent, more "realistic," and more
>  marketable books by JCO.
>  

It surprises me that the publishers of JCO worry about her books being
"marketable."  She's the most prolific writer of this century---why would
they worry about that?       



Subject: 
                   Re: Research help?
        Date:  Thu, 27 Feb 97 11:45:04 EST
       From:  Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: Joyce Carol Oates Discussion list jco@usfca.edu


On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 20:57:33 -0800 Nikki Senecal said:

>I am writing my DISSERTATION *just* on women's violence in Joyce Carol
>Oates.  I think you need to narrow your topic.  And your professor should
>have told you that.  If you can be more specific, I could help.
>
>Nikki Senecal

I'd have to agree with Nikki.  I wrote a senior thesis on dependency in jco's
short fiction and found something I could use in every story, including how
violence comes from that dependency.  Are you planning to look at particular
works, a genre she writes in, etc.  I'd like to help also.     



Subject:  Archive?
        Date:  Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
       From: Richard Ressmyer ressmyrr@wvlc.wvnet.edu
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To: discussion list jco jco@usfca.edu


Greetings,

I am new to the list 2/27/97.  Is there an archive site for the 
discussions to date?

Also to share:

My organization, The Library Foundation of Kanawha County (WV) will host 
JCO at two events, April 19 and 20, 1997; these are listed at Celestial 
Timepiece under lectures/appearances in TOC.

My most recent reading of JCO is TENDERNESS.

Thank you,

Richard    



Subject:  Re: The Dunwich Horror
        Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:20:40 -0500 (EST)
       From:  RJohn713@aol.com
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
            To: jco@usfca.edu


Well, it's pretty simple--publishers are in the business to make money,
especially New York trade publishers.



Subject: Re: Archive?
           Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:09:40 -0800
          From: Randy Souther 
    Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
               To:  jco@usfca.edu


Richard Ressmyer wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I am new to the list 2/27/97.  Is there an archive site for the
> discussions to date?
> 


At present there is no archive, though I am considering making an
archive on the Web with weekly or perhaps biweekly updates.

Opinions?

Randy Souther



Subject:  Re: The Dunwich Horror
           Date:   Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:20:58 -0800
          From:  Randy Souther Randy Souther
    Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu

> 
> Well, it's pretty simple--publishers are in the business to make money,
> especially New York trade publishers.

Are you suggesting that, for example, "The Crosswicks Horror"
is ready for publication and that JCO wishes to publish it, but
that her publisher (i.e. Dutton) is resistant? This would amaze 
me. I had just assumed, admittedly without any particular reason,
that the manuscript required further revision, but that JCO had
indefinitely put it aside in favor of other projects. Now, I've
never worked with publishers before, so perhaps my naivete shows, 
but I would think that Dutton would jump at something like Crosswicks
if only because by its genre--Horror--it might be marketable to 
even larger audiences than would normally buy literary fiction.

Randy Souther



Subject:  Re: The Dunwich Horror
        Date:  Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:46:46 -0500 (EST)
       From:  RJohn713@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
            To:  jco@usfca.edu

I discuss this issue to some extent in the forthcoming biography.  No, I
didn't mean to suggest any conflict between JCO and her publisher.  If she
felt strongly about publishing CROSSWICKS, it would be published.  But like
most smart writers, she is guided by a good editor (in her case, William
Abrahams), and it's simply a fact that most readers and critics prefer her
realistic fiction.  Her first "Gothic," BELLEFLEUR, sold quite well--in fact,
it remains her largest-selling book--but readership for the next two declined
precipitiously, and MYSTERIES OF WINTERTHURN in particular did not sell well.
 Although CROSSWICKS was scheduled next, she also had a new realistic novel
ready, YOU MUST REMEMBER THIS, so that was substituted.  It was very
successful.

In part, all this relates to JCO's prolificacy.  Even in the 1970s, several
novels were bought by Vanguard but later supplanted by newer novels that JCO
preferred.  So, for instance, in the archive at Syracuse University there is
a fine novel called JIGSAW that got lost in what JCO often humorously termed
her "logjam" and was never published.  There are several such manuscripts.

Greg Johnson



Subject: Celestial Timepiece on Author's Pen Site
                Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:21:20 +0000
               From: Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
        Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
Organization:  Copo Ltd
                   To: jco@usfca.edu


Dear Randy, I first found Celestrial Timepiece on a wonderful website 
called AUTHOR'S PEN, which is an index of all the authors who have 
their own websites.  Since that day, I have been unable to relocate 
the URL for Author's Pen, despite many searches.  Do you know the URL?  
Does anybody out there know?  I am aching to return to it, as I need 
lists of authors who have websites of their own for my current 
project.  While I'm at it, thanks for the inside info on jco's 
unpublished mss.  It's comforting to know that even the most prolific 
of writers is restricted by the publishing industry's concept of 
"marketability".  I certainly have been, especially in recent years, 
when there are so few adventurous houses.  It's all about the bucks.  
Sad, but true for each and every writer on the planet.

Please somebody, get me that URL!

Francie Schwartz
fabela@gte.net



Subject:  Re: Archive? --yes
           Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 05:59:58 -0400
          From: "Dr. Cynthia J. Hallett" 
    Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu

Most lists keep an Archive for at least these 3 reasons:

3. New comers can catch up with the thread of a converstation
  so that they can enter the stream withouttrying to discuss
  something that had already been covered, sometime THOROUGHLY.
 
2. Regular listers can review a thread before continued response.
  It's nice to reread something rather than assuming you
  remember and "got it" the first time--serval days or weeks later.

1. Info in a thread can be extremely informative and made use of
  later, e.g.,  books discussed or suggested can be suddenly
  become interesting for use in research or a syllabus

Some lists are so full of such wonderful discussions that
eventually the material is also archived by subject matter.
One such list is the Women's Studies List is a wealth 
of info in this respect.

-Archives are kept by almost all discussion lists that
continue for any length of time--notice, not a reason
to keep archives, just a point which suggests that
 there must be good reason to do so.

Cynthia

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Cynthia J. Hallett  / Florida Community College of Jacksonville
Kent Campus Box 94 / 3939 Roosevelt Blvd. /Jacksonville FL 32205
office-voice mail (904) 381-3430 / fax (904) 381-3462
     e-mail:  challett@jax-inter.net
     internet:  http://www.fccj.cc.fl.us/~challett



Subject:  Re: New American Gothic

           Date:  Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:26:51 -0500


          From: Kim Brennan poetess1@bellatlantic.net
    Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

               To:  jco@usfca.edu





There is a book of her short stories called HAUNTED.  It has a few
excellent gothic type stories in it.  This sounds like an interesting
topic and I am interesting in hearing more about it as you progress.

Kim



Subject:  Re: Celestial Timepiece on Author's Pen Site
        Date:  Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:48:07 -0400 (EDT)
       From: Richard Ressmyer ressmyrr@wvlc.wvnet.edu
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
            To:  jco@usfca.edu
    


Author's Pen URL:

        http://www.books.com/scripts/authors.exe

I have used this several times and find it of value.

Richard H. Ressmeyer
Charleston, WV

On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Francie Schwartz wrote:

> Dear Randy, I first found Celestrial Timepiece on a wonderful website 
> called AUTHOR'S PEN, which is an index of all the authors who have 
> their own websites.  Since that day, I have been unable to relocate 
> the URL for Author's Pen, despite many searches.  Do you know the URL?  
> Does anybody out there know?  I am aching to return to it, as I need 
> lists of authors who have websites of their own for my current 
> project.  While I'm at it, thanks for the inside info on jco's 
> unpublished mss.  It's comforting to know that even the most prolific 
> of writers is restricted by the publishing industry's concept of 
> "marketability".  I certainly have been, especially in recent years, 
> when there are so few adventurous houses.  It's all about the bucks.  
> Sad, but true for each and every writer on the planet.
> 
> Please somebody, get me that URL!
> 
> Francie Schwartz
> fabela@gte.net
> 



Subject:   Re: Celestial Timepiece on Author's Pen Site
                Date:  Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:27:18 +0000
               From: Francie Schwartz 
        Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
Organization:  Copo Ltd
                   To: jco@usfca.edu

Richard Ressmyer wrote:
> 
> Author's Pen URL:
> 
>         http://www.books.com/scripts/authors.exe
> 
> I have used this several times and find it of value.
> 
> Richard H. Ressmeyer
> Charleston, WV
> 
> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Francie Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > Dear Randy, I first found Celestrial Timepiece on a wonderful website
> > called AUTHOR'S PEN, which is an index of all the authors who have
> > their own websites.  Since that day, I have been unable to relocate
> > the URL for Author's Pen, despite many searches.  Do you know the URL?
> > Does anybody out there know?  I am aching to return to it, as I need
> > lists of authors who have websites of their own for my current
> > project.  While I'm at it, thanks for the inside info on jco's
> > unpublished mss.  It's comforting to know that even the most prolific
> > of writers is restricted by the publishing industry's concept of
> > "marketability".  I certainly have been, especially in recent years,
> > when there are so few adventurous houses.  It's all about the bucks.
> > Sad, but true for each and every writer on the planet.
> >
> > Please somebody, get me that URL!
> >
> > Francie Schwartz
> > fabela@gte.net

Thank you very much, but that server doesn't seem to be accepting 
calls.  Could someone else try it and let me know what's happening?  
Is that URL exactly right?  I feel so close and yet so far... Francie 
Schwartz



Subject:   Re: Celestial Timepiece on Author's Pen Site
           Date:  Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:48:57 -0800
          From:  Randy Souther 
    Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu

Francie Schwartz wrote:
> 
> Dear Randy . . . 
> While I'm at it, thanks for the inside info on jco's
> unpublished mss.  It's comforting to know that even the most prolific
> of writers is restricted by the publishing industry's concept of
> "marketability". 

I'm not sure I find it comforting, but it's certainly fascinating.
Thank Greg Johnson, though, for the information; I was just
asking the questions.

Randy Souther

Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 3-3-97
Send comments and suggestions to Randy Souther